I have a LBC set in purgatory which starts with a V4 on the tension board and then traverses onto the 20* where there is a series of decent crimps with some delicate footwork before a final throw to a big flat edge, this section probably tops out at V3. If completed the LBC is 23 moves and takes about 1:30 to complete. This is my first "short" LBC as mine have usually been in the 40/50 move range and I have a few questions.
I can only complete it on my first lap, laps 2-4 I have been getting to the final throw but not latching, laps 5/6 I'm falling around move 13 on the down climb. I have been using a 1:2 duty cycle. Should I keep everything the same, increase the rest, or make a few of the holds easier for the next few LBCs?
Also, I am not really pumping out, I do feel a slight pump but I am falling because I am so powered down that I cannot keep my hands closed around the crimps. This is especially the case on the holds that I move into dynamically. I am used to feeling a desperate pump but this is a bit different for me. Is this the way you all feel on shorter & harder LBCs?
I don't feel like I do enough PE training to be sure of what to do, but I have tweaked my downclimbs a few times to make sure they aren't the crux, as this doesn't seem like optimal training overall. It has happened that they aren't the crux until a few rounds in, for some reason.
I have also experienced the "melting off" holds feeling vs the "pump" on shorter sequences or those with crimpier holds.
Last Edit: Mar 26, 2018 17:40:54 GMT -7 by tetrault
Not sure what it says about my training, physiology, or strengths/weaknesses, but I almost never feel that debilitating pump I used to get before I started training, and almost always just power down as you're describing. This happens both in my PE circuits (Very similar to what you described above, though on my 45) as well as on the 60 foot, 30 degree overhanging wall at my gym. It is the very, very rare route that gets me legit pumped. Rather, I just lose the ability to pull on small-ish holds, and then I'm off...
So, if I'm doing something wrong, it's the same thing as you, and I'd love to know what it is! Or maybe we're both doing something right?? (unlikely). Or probably we're just training a different energy system for whatever reason.
Or probably we're just training a different energy system for whatever reason.
Based on your description, I think you guys are training both the aerobic and anaerobic lactic systems, but probably leaning much heavier on the anaerobic lactic system. It's not necessarily a good or bad thing, it really depends on the goal of your training.
I had a similar issue, I felt like the high intensity training I was doing was useful (in my case 3 V4s linked on the moonboard with a juggy downclimb in between) but I could only do one to three quality sets. I recently added some lower intensity/higher volume training after a few sets of my circuit and I think this has been helpful for me since right now I am not training for one specific type of route and so would like to train for both medium length power endurance routes as well as longer fitness routes.
Just did another round and a changed a few things. I made one of the downclimb holds better and one of the final crux holds better. I also added to better feet at the end. I made these changes cause I was rarely finishing the thing when I was fresh and I remember it being discussed on here that your LBC should be easier than your project and those changes really helped. The LBC is set so that after the final throw I can easily jump back in and start another lap if I still have time on the clock.
This time around I fully completed the LBC + 3 to 5 additional moves for the first 4 laps. I kept the 1:30/3:00 DC and during Lap 1/2 I felt a slight pump but it was not really bad. Lap 3/4 I felt pump only after I came off the wall. Lap 5 I only made 80% through but felt no real pump, just pealed off at the end. Lap 6 was pathetic as I just had no strength left.
It seems that I get "pumped" when the climbing is easier and I am "fresher" which is kinda interesting to observe.
Post by jetjackson on Apr 14, 2018 20:17:24 GMT -7
Could you possibly film and share your LBC? I have just started PE training on the home board and for the first time since starting RPTM training I actually have the ability to set my own problems - this has made me realize just how hard it is to set the perfect LBC. Would be keen to see how you have put yours together.
youtu.be/1ERRzk9XSXk - link to my circuit. This is my second burn, after doing LB training earlier in the day, so I'm not that fresh and not completing the problems as well as I would normally being fresh. I think I have too many rests. I wonder if I should make it harder, and shorter.
Part of the problem I'm finding with my board, is that I have to either make the starting holds easy, or put a rest jug before I go into hard starting holds, or I'll just come off. Makes it harder to have a crimp sequence with multiple crimps in the short space on my board.
Also, to the point of this thread - I also find that PE is different for me now, than what it was in the past. In the past just random jug hauling on a 40 degree wall would wear me out after 40 moves, even with unlimited rests. Although I seem to still be getting a pump.
Last Edit: Apr 14, 2018 20:22:03 GMT -7 by jetjackson
Headed to go work on my project for a few days so it will be a week till I do my LBC again but I’ll film it when I do. I find setting a good LBC is really hard. I usually set one that’s too hard at first then make crux holds and feet slightly easier one at a time till I land on the appropriate difficulty. The awesome part of a home wall is I can leave my LBC up for as long as I want and I know how to make it harder if I need to.
Jackson, is there a specific goal route (or style of route) you're trying to simulate with that LBC? My general comments would be that (a) there are too many rests and (b) you're moving too fast to mimic outdoor rock climbing.
(a) In general, a 35-move LBC would be in that mid-intensity range in which there shouldn't be any rests (see RCTM p. 159) and the moves should be strenuous enough that it's hard (or impossible) to chalk up between moves. Though, if you're simulating a specific goal route with a strenuous rest then it's worthwhile to simulate that.
(b) You're moving pretty fast. If you take out the time spent at each rest (10s @ the 1st, 25s @ the 2nd and 40s @ the 3rd; 1:05 total), you climb 38 moves in ~1:45. That's 2.8 sec per hand move, which is faster than Ondra fast. If you go back and watch videos of the PE crux sections on your hardest redpoints, you can get a better idea of pace. Setting lots of pockets for feet, using really complex/funky handholds that have to be grabbed just right, and setting checkpoints (i.e. "Don't move past this hold until X:XX time") are good options for slowing yourself down.
Setting the perfect circuit is SO hard! I usually find it takes me 3-4 workouts of tweaking to get the LBC to where I want it (which means 3-4 sub-optimal PE workouts).
youtu.be/KcS2E7TsghY - I did it last night without rests, see new video. You're almost dead right - I think about 1:55 without rests.
I don't see why climbing fast is an issue though? I climb fast outdoors where I can. This isn't me - but check this guy out - www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlB_4tOJqZ4 If I knew a route outdoors like I know these boulders on my wall at home, I'd climb it that fast outdoors.
Maybe, but I think everyone always climbs slower outdoors. You have to pause to clip, the holds are harder to spot, the holds are more intricate (and thus require more precise foot/hand placements)....
In terms of skill development, I think it's worthwhile to climb the same circuit at increasing speeds in order to find the point at which you're going so fast that technique degrades.
Post by jetjackson on Apr 19, 2018 18:13:57 GMT -7
With the difficulty, none of the individual moves are that hard for me - although not sure if this is because I have rehearsed those problems so many times. I'll keep tweaking it, but I'm struggling to add difficulty that won't end up being a lower percentage move that will just spit me off, even though I'm not that pumped out.
I'll play around with pacing and see how I go. I'd do the same thing on an outdoor project anyway - sprint through the dialed hard sections to the easier sections. I have not seriously projected in the last months through - so I don't have anything that 'dialed' yet. One goal route I have is a 5.12d called Velvet Goldmine. Which is easier climbing to a 10 foot crux, followed by knee bar rest, and then an overhanging section that traverses right for about 30-40 feet. It's that final section I had in mind with this circuit, which has repetitive big right hand spanning movements with left foot heel hooks that I'll have to do while pumped.
Also, I really enjoy climbing fast
Also, if you could film your LBC and share, that would be great. I'm keen to see how other do it.
Last Edit: Apr 19, 2018 18:21:50 GMT -7 by jetjackson
Post by jetjackson on Apr 19, 2018 19:21:50 GMT -7
I've avoided doing that because I don't really want to create problems that are 'forced' use of footholds, so to speak.
I understand you can approach the LBC from the perspective of counting handholds, and just only using random small foot jibs - I've done that in the past. However I would think that would just eliminate the use of techniques such as the hand foot matches that I do on this current circuit - those are actually strenuous moves, like the high right foot match before I match go up into the hueco - that's a tough move.
Re-watching I really only have about 6-7 foot moves that are 'tracking' on larger holds and a 3 of those are high foot moves or extended toe moves, the rest (30+ foot movements) are on 2-tex stealth feet, or e-grips foot jibs.
Last Edit: Apr 19, 2018 19:22:38 GMT -7 by jetjackson
It starts with a V4 boulder on the tension board and then moves onto the 20* and follows a series of mostly egrips comfy crimps with some of their limestone edges and heuco patina crimps thrown in. For feet I am using mostly screw on chips but they are the biggest ones I have. If I needed to make it harder reducing foot size would be my first step. Technically it ends with the throw to the edge but the circuit is set so that if I still have time on the clock I can go back in for another lap. On the vid I drop once I hear the timer go off. That big edge I could easily rest and shake on but I really try hard to not do more than take a good breath there and just keep moving.
I really like this circuit and could easily adjust it if needed to fit project needs. Let say I need to train for a longer route, I would make the opening boulder on the TB easier and finish the LBC on another boulder on the TB. Or if it needs to be harder I could reduce the foot size and shrink a few key holds. What I don't like, the amount of traversing, I also would like more dynamic movement in it.
I am very open to critical feedback of the LBC design or my climbing movement.