Signs it's time to move on to Power

[mclay]

What are the signs that you've hit a ceiling in a current Strength Phase? This has been my best Strength Phase since I started RCTM - 5th cycle, 3rd without injury/significant interruption. It's been the first time I've been able to complete more than 6 HB workouts in a cycle. So a little bit into uncharted territory for me. 

The ending 3 grips of HB 6 and about half of the grip on HB7 there was a noticeable trend of failing on the last rep, last second. The book states this is the goal of the training. Should I press on in hopes of further breakthroughs on HB8? Or is the perpetual, identical failure point (even when keeping weight the same) a sign that I peaked somewhere at HB6?

[daustin]

I think a big part of the decision is subjective and based on experience listening to your body. Do you feel like you've plateaued? Do you feel like you're still making gains even if the numbers might not reflect it?

That said, if you're still making it to last rep, last second, I'd probably go for HB8, with as much rest, proper nutrition & quality sleep beforehand as possible. If HB8 is as bad or worse than HB7 (either qualitatively by feel, or quant by numbers) then I'd probably call it quits on strength and move on to power. If HB8 is better, then I'd consider going onto HB9, etc.

[MarkAnderson]

Keep going! Failing at the ends of sets in the latter half of the Strength Phase is common. You'll probably crush the next workout.

[srossabi42]

just to be clear, if you are failing on the last second of the last rep for a few grips, do you go ahead and increase the resistance in the next workout? or do you keep the resistance the same and make sure you finish all reps in all sets?

[MarkAnderson]

What do you mean by "failing on the last second"? Are you failing at 6.5 seconds, or 7.0 seconds (assuming 7 sec reps)? If the latter, I would increase resistance. Otherwise, keep the resistance the same.

[mclay]

Consistently sliding off at in between 6.0 and 6.75 seconds on the last rep - If I still have flesh on the edge and I see 7 on the timer, I count it as rep done!

[scojo]

Feb 15, 2017 20:46:10 GMT -7 mclay said:

Consistently sliding off at in between 6.0 and 6.75 seconds on the last rep - If I still have flesh on the edge and I see 7 on the timer, I count it as rep done!

I usually also require that the flesh is still attached to the rest of my body

[mclay]

This follow-up post is more about power, but it comes out of the previous question that started this thread. I went ahead and was able do two more full HB workouts. I didn't completely crush, but was able to get two more personal bests across the two workouts. After two rest days I began the power phase. I was traveling internationally and was excited to be able to train power in an actual climbing gym. I was looking forward to using a campus board for the second time ever. I did my first (and only) campus workout back in December and was able to only do basic ladders on the largest rungs (Moon spacing). I have kept pull-ups in my supplemental exercises throughout this training cycle, and I expected see an improvement.

On the day of the workout I went through the prescribed campus workout protocol from RCTM - 15 mins traversing; Boulder ladder up to V3; 10-20 attempts at V3-V4. By the time I got to the campus board I was barely able to dead hang from the large campus rung. I tried maybe three times to do basic ladders on the large rungs, but it felt like I had my 4 year old on my back. No power. This was pretty disappointing on several levels, but mainly on a training progression level. I know from the measured evidence my fingers are stronger than ever and I can do more pull-ups than ever before. Body weight was at the same level as during the HB workouts.

There are several possibilities that might have led to not having any power at the time I would have expected to see some gains - international travel/jet lag; different campus board (rungs were more in-cut, but less surface area?); maybe I tried too many overhanging/thuggish problems during the boulder ladder and hard boulder attempts?

Unfortunately due to my lower back getting wrecked from jumping off the top of higher than normal walls I was unable to make it back to the gym on my trip in order to see what difference another workout would have made. Between traveling home and the back injury I just started climbing/training again after 11 days off. But now the training schedule is messed up and I'm not sure whether I should do a few more HB workouts or try to continue with power training on my limited home gym. Any advice? I'm really down as the whole episode has taken me from super-psyched at the end of Strength phase, to barely feeling able to train now that the Power phase seems a bit pointless.

[MarkAnderson]

That's odd. My first power workout is usually relativey poor but your experience is pretty extreme. What was the total duration of your traversing+WBL+bouldering? Did you feel sluggish during the bouldering? How long was your flight(s) and how many hours passed between landing and the workout?  When I fly overseas my first day there is always a disaster.  I feel like a zombie.

Sorry to hear about your back.  That really sucks.  As for what to do next, it might depend on your goals and climbing seasons.  If I had nothing big on the calendar I'd probably start over after an 11-day break.  If you did that, I bet your strength would come back really quick, so maybe a shortened Strength Phase would be enough to get back on track.

[tetrault]

Sorry, can't help with schedule. But as far as mental state goes, there is no reason not to be psyched! I think this aspect of training is more important than many other details we can all get hung-up on.

You said that you have measured evidence of stronger fingers than ever and more pull-ups than ever before. This is awesome! The training is working and is due to pay off in the future. You also recovered from an injury, which is equally great.

In my experience, long distance air travel has negatively affected HB and Power workouts significantly. And, it always surprises me as I have felt good ARCing and/or warming up. 

Not sure of the exact quote, but to steal a line from Moffatt: if you're feeling weak on a given day, your power isn't lost and hasn't gone anywhere; you're just tired.

[mclay]

Mar 5, 2017 7:52:38 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

What was the total duration of your traversing+WBL+bouldering? Did you feel sluggish during the bouldering? How long was your flight(s) and how many hours passed between landing and the workout?  

If I had nothing big on the calendar I'd probably start over after an 11-day break.  If you did that, I bet your strength would come back really quick, so maybe a shortened Strength Phase would be enough to get back on track.

I felt pretty good throughout the warm-up and bouldering. I could certainly tell that my technique and finger strength had improved significantly since the last time I climbed in a commercial gym. One of the V3's was coming out of a cave/roof section - pretty shoulder intensive?

Total travel time was around 30+ hours, with about 48 hours having passed since landing. Jet lag was 8 hour time difference.

I don't have any big targets for the first half of this year, mainly due to international travel playing havoc with training cycles. I was leaning towards re-starting or working a hybrid "performance"/ARC cycle of climbing outside as much as possible on non-goal routes to fill out my pyramid before a focused macrocycle that aims for a goal route later in the year. 

[aikibujin]

Mar 5, 2017 7:34:31 GMT -7 mclay said:

But now the training schedule is messed up and I'm not sure whether I should do a few more HB workouts or try to continue with power training on my limited home gym. Any advice?

If the power training you do in your home gym is to set limit bouldering problems, I think it's valuable to do at least a few weeks of that.

After I read about "capacity training" and "utilization training", I started to think of strength as capacity, and power as utilization (of strength). This may not be 100% accurate in physics terms, but... what did physics ever do for us? So you may have gained strength from your HB and pullup training (you have the capacity), but you still need specific training in order to utilize that strength. Since this was your second campus board work out, I would guess you still have a lot to gain in coordination, timing, technique, etc. So the lack of "skill" on a campus board, combined with jetlag, and maybe bouldering a little too hard before campusing, gave you a bad day on the campus board. I wouldn't let that bother me at all.

I didn't start campusing until about two years ago, after I read RCTM. I was strong enough when I tried campusing for the first time, but my timing was off, I was not firing my muscles at the right time, I wasn't controlling my center of gravity well, etc. It was a massive struggle-fest just to do basic ladders on large rungs. And I watch people do 1-3-5 on the small rungs and think "how am I ever supposed to do that?!" But after just a few weeks of campusing, I was able to learn the technique and progressed quickly since I had the capacity to do those moves, I just needed to learn how to do them.

So I think it's valuable to do some power training now, even if just to learn the movement. Otherwise you can train on the HB and pullups forever and get very strong, but you still won't be able to apply that on the campus board (or hard boulder problems) right away. On the other hand, my experience is that as long as you build up the capacity (which takes a lot of time), it doesn't take a lot of training to utilize that. So if you can't train on a campus board right now, it's not the end of the world.

[mclay]

Mar 5, 2017 9:28:39 GMT -7 aikibujin said:

Mar 5, 2017 7:34:31 GMT -7 mclay said:

But now the training schedule is messed up and I'm not sure whether I should do a few more HB workouts or try to continue with power training on my limited home gym. Any advice?

If the power training you do in your home gym is to set limit bouldering problems, I think it's valuable to do at least a few weeks of that.

After I read about "capacity training" and "utilization training", I started to think of strength as capacity, and power as utilization (of strength). This may not be 100% accurate in physics terms, but... what did physics ever do for us? So you may have gained strength from your HB and pullup training (you have the capacity), but you still need specific training in order to utilize that strength. Since this was your second campus board work out, I would guess you still have a lot to gain in coordination, timing, technique, etc. So the lack of "skill" on a campus board, combined with jetlag, and maybe bouldering a little too hard before campusing, gave you a bad day on the campus board. I wouldn't let that bother me at all.

I think I understand what you are saying when comparing capacity to utilization. I have struggled with that, particularly in transitioning from hangboard to holding similarly-sized holds on real rock. The difference in my particular failure is that I was able to campus in the previous training macrocycle, despite the data showing I had weaker fingers (by several Kg on pertinent grip) and was doing fewer pull-ups (10-15 less per workout). This seems to point to the conditions/logistics as the main problem; this was my primary reason for posting in conjunction with my prior hangboard problem - are the two "bumps" in the training highway in anyway related?

I've tried to implement Mark's advice to "start over" - I'm hoping I interpreted his comment correctly (start macrocycle over, and not simply re-do the Strength phase); 2nd ARC workout was this morning. I'm still feeling the same general lack of oomph I felt in the bouldering gym. This could, again, be down to jet lag coming the other way.

[climbnkev]

I wouldn't throw in the towel just yet. Do 2-3 more bouldering/power workouts first to see if you can come around. Remember that climbing is a technical sport and spending a month hangboarding ( and traveling) have done nothing for your technique. It's pretty common to feel rusty coming out the gate.

[jetjackson]

Resurrecting this thread - how far do you keep going?

I just finished 9th workout today. I'd taken an extra day of rest (albeit because I got a 3 hour sleep night and felt I needed to extra day also) - but I'm still getting severely pumped on my third grip. I ended up taking an extra 5 minute rest for the pump to subside before the final set, so I could hit a new PB on the forge crimp.

See docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1czf4NgXSR4sdTi5hoNOwWLJWQ4gAVUasqA-Z4GlhFMY/edit?usp=sharing the hangboard spreadsheet tab called Hangboard Cycle 10. It's color coded, so you can see where I'm failing - you can almost draw a diagonal line from where I'm failing on the last set of the last hang in the 5th workout, to the 1st grip on the latest workout. Progressively I drop more and more sets in each successive workout.

I'm wondering how much more value there is to keep going for a 10th hangboard workout, or if I should shift to power. Moreover, I'd be eager to hear any feedback from others on whether they see a similar pattern throughout their phase - should I be hitting PRs later? 

This was the first cycle for me doing 7/6/5, rather than 7/6 - I dropped back grips to reduce the total load and TUT. TUT and Total load for each training session are all at least 10% less than what I did in previous cycles with more grips on the 7/6.