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Post by ehowell on Jan 12, 2017 10:53:05 GMT -7
This is something I think about a lot...
I have a near constant debate with a friend (and myself) on the "correct" way to progress. He loves mega projects, working the shit out of a route for 20 or more sessions (so like 60+ tries). That's way too much for me. I generally aim for a project that I can complete in 20 tries or less, so about 3-5 sessions (still a lot by some people's standards). Otherwise, I start feeling a lot of undesired pressure to perform, and I get sick of doing the same thing: same approach, same warm ups, etc. I even spoke to a sports psychologist about this, and she suggested to think of it as a plot of skill vs difficulty. Early in a new project, difficulty is quite high and your skill on that particular route is quite low (you fall all over it), but those early burns result in a lot of new gains. Thus, your interest level is really high and you are engaged. As you get to the inevitable 1-hang status, your skill is now much higher and the difficulty, while still hard, is not so bad. We've all been there, we finally get the send of a longer project and are sort of disappointed to find that it was easy (at least on that go). At this point, she says your propensity towards boredom is quite high, which is why this phase in redpointing is so loathsome to us. She suggested you aim for a difficulty of about 7. Any harder, you increase your chances of frustration and performance anxiety; any easier, you run the risk of not stimulating yourself as much as you could be to promote growth.
So this is a question for Mark and others who have had longer battles. Mark, was your experience on Shadowboxing worth it in your mind? It seems you no doubt explored your upper limit -- something I arguably haven't done -- but how much value does it hold? I'm sure the feeling of success on a long battle is euphoric, but at what cost? I seem to remember Mike Doyle expressing some level of doubt on whether his prolonged battle with Necessary Evil had made him a better climber, despite ticking a personal best route.
There's no correct answer, I'm just curious on what the group thinks. It's January and I'm thinking about the future!
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Post by climber511 on Jan 12, 2017 11:13:17 GMT -7
I've climbed for 3 decades now (totally weekend recreational) and have only "worked" one route in all that time (maybe over a period of 3 days?)- oh I'll fall a couple times on a route maybe but that's all - almost entirely trad routes. This year I want to "chase numbers" as I am calling it (a little late in the game perhaps for me but it should be fun). I struggle with the whole idea of spending days working out the moves on say a 5.12 route and then saying I am a 5.12 climber. I won't call myself something like that until I can just walk up to a 12 and be fairly confident I can onsight it. I have seen so many people over the years falling all over a 5.9 someplace but saying they climb 12b or whatever - it's not really the "working the route" that bothers me but the claiming to be a (insert number here) when they simply are not.
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Post by ehowell on Jan 12, 2017 11:19:51 GMT -7
5.11, I see this a lot. Basically, I really don't care about what I can do on paper. Well, that's at least 50% a lie, as I think we all care. My goal is to master climbing as best as I can, and obviously I'd like to see a correspondence in increasing grades. But...I don't think it's beneficial to stretch myself as far as absolutely possible to check a box on a certain grade.
That being said, for someone like Mark or other elite climbers, there is a place for that. Some of these guys, the Ondra's/Caldwell's/Sharma's of the world have to carry the sport, so it's important that they really push it. And for Mark, although I should let him speak for himself, I think he wanted to see what he was truly capable of after years of high level climbing. That makes sense, but does it always make sense...?
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Post by aikibujin on Jan 12, 2017 11:34:13 GMT -7
It's January and I'm thinking about the future! What do you mean?! It's perfect sending temp right now, and I'm trying really hard!
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 12, 2017 12:37:03 GMT -7
It's January and I'm thinking about the future! What do you mean?! It's perfect sending temp right now, and I'm trying really hard! Speaking of which, I'm about to begin my power phase. Will either of you guys be able to get out in late Jan and/or Feb?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 12, 2017 12:49:40 GMT -7
Great question Evan. I think it's pretty well established that I don't recommend mega-projects as a rule. The exception is someone who thinks they're at or very near their lifetime peak and they want to eke out the hardest send they will ever have. There are other exceptions, like you've done all the 12c's at your crag, there aren't any 12d's, and the next easiest thing is a stretch....
Anyway, I think the time I spent on the rock for Shadowboxing, 28 climbing days, something like 15 weekends of my family living in a hotel, was definitely NOT worth it. I don't think that time did much to make me a better rock climber. Certainly not physically, though you could make an argument for mentally. That said, I think there was enormous value in the process of training for SB. And I've had the same experience with other objectives I thought would require my very best effort. These types of goals really force me to give my best in training, diet, and preparation, and those efforts make me a better climber. Often the years I improve the most, I send the least, because I'm working things that really push me, and so take a ton of time, multiple seasons, etc. If I knew my goal for this season was just to do a 14b or something, I would make compromises in training, and I probably wouldn't improve at all. SB demanded that I improve my PE a ton (and generally get the most out of every workout). That made me a better climber and I expect to benefit from that for years to come.
One side note: You mention how Sharma, et al have to "Carry the sport". I really feel, wrongly or rightly, that I have to "carry" training for climbing. Surely I over-estimate my importance, but I feel like I have to keep having bigger and better results to "prove" to people that training (and the RP method in particular), works. It turns out that if anything sending SB just increased the energy and vitriol of the anti-RP haters. I don't really get that, but maybe jealousy has something to do with it.
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Post by aikibujin on Jan 12, 2017 12:51:18 GMT -7
Speaking of which, I'm about to begin my power phase. Will either of you guys be able to get out in late Jan and/or Feb? I'm pretty sure I'll be doing all my climbing on a hangboard by then. I imagine myself sleep deprived, doing one arm hangs while holding a screaming baby with the other.
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Post by ehowell on Jan 12, 2017 13:11:33 GMT -7
Great question Evan. I think it's pretty well established that I don't recommend mega-projects as a rule. The exception is someone who thinks they're at or very near their lifetime peak and they want to eke out the hardest send they will ever have. There are other exceptions, like you've done all the 12c's at your crag, there aren't any 12d's, and the next easiest thing is a stretch.... Anyway, I think the time I spent on the rock for Shadowboxing, 28 climbing days, something like 15 weekends of my family living in a hotel, was definitely NOT worth it. I don't think that time did much to make me a better rock climber. Certainly not physically, though you could make an argument for mentally. That said, I think there was enormous value in the process of training for SB. And I've had the same experience with other objectives I thought would require my very best effort. These types of goals really force me to give my best in training, diet, and preparation, and those efforts make me a better climber. Often the years I improve the most, I send the least, because I'm working things that really push me, and so take a ton of time, multiple seasons, etc. If I knew my goal for this season was just to do a 14b or something, I would make compromises in training, and I probably wouldn't improve at all. SB demanded that I improve my PE a ton (and generally get the most out of every workout). That made me a better climber and I expect to benefit from that for years to come. One side note: You mention how Sharma, et al have to "Carry the sport". I really feel, wrongly or rightly, that I have to "carry" training for climbing. Surely I over-estimate my importance, but I feel like I have to keep having bigger and better results to "prove" to people that training (and the RP method in particular), works. It turns out that if anything sending SB just increased the energy and vitriol of the anti-RP haters. I don't really get that, but maybe jealousy has something to do with it. Great response. I've asked this question a lot and I think your answer pretty much sums up how "gray" it is. I completely agree that having a big project really focuses your training. I'm luckily a pretty disciplined person, so for even my summer season (which never includes a PR goal), I still obsess over hangboard numbers, campus board sets, my weight, etc. So in that sense, I guess I feel I train just as hard no matter my goals, even if it's only for a vague hope of "improvement". Your point on carrying training is a great one. When you advocate for something, there's no doubt pressure to prove its worth. From my perspective, you and Mike (met him and the fam at Thunder last Sunday btw, nice guy) have certainly shown that it works for you guys, and I think there's plenty of us other minions (most everyone on this blog??) that can show the value in our own improvements. There's probably a tipping point in there, and it's probably 13+ to 5.14. I imagine if you're climbing at this level, grade chasing or not, you probably have a vast repertoire of movement skills and more short-term projects are probably not of much additional value. I'm trying to break into 13, so I still feel lots of redpointing practice is of great value, where you can bang out a lot of hard routes and start to really understand what it takes for you to perform at the next level. Something like that... Oh, per getting out...that's also unfortunately my HB time, but let me know as the time approaches. I get cooped up not climbing much, so I might be game to get out for a day and possibly even be a belay slave. Possibly
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Post by aikibujin on Jan 12, 2017 14:07:42 GMT -7
I'm trying to break into 13, so I still feel lots of redpointing practice is of great value, where you can bang out a lot of hard routes and start to really understand what it takes for you to perform at the next level. Something like that... Do you use the grade pyramid? If you don't, maybe you can use it to help you make that decision on when to project something next grade up.
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Post by ehowell on Jan 12, 2017 15:40:31 GMT -7
I do use the pyramid, but the debate is still valid. If I've done a 5.12d and it took me three tries, then I'm probably ready for 5.13. If, however, I have a good pyramid on paper but each of those sends took a major siege, I would say I'm not ready despite what the pyramid is telling me.
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Post by aikibujin on Jan 12, 2017 19:03:32 GMT -7
I do use the pyramid, but the debate is still valid. If I've done a 5.12d and it took me three tries, then I'm probably ready for 5.13. If, however, I have a good pyramid on paper but each of those sends took a major siege, I would say I'm not ready despite what the pyramid is telling me. Maybe, or maybe when you do a 12d in three tries, it was a route that played really well to your strength. On the other hand, if it took you 20 tries, maybe you just happen to pick a route that's totally your anti-style, or the route is really sandbagged. It's hard to say since it's only one route. But if you build a four-tier pyramid, to consider 13a, you should have completed two 12d, four 12c, and eight 12b. That's 14 redpoints that should build a good enough base for you to at least try 13a, regardless how long it took for you to do the two 12d. So in my opinion, I wouldn't go to 13a even if I just did a 12d in three tries (in my dreams), unless I've filled out the rest of the pyramid. Similarly, even if it took me some 30 epic tries to get a 12d (a lot more likely), as long as my pyramid is complete, I'll try a 13a... but maybe I'll look for one that fits my style of climbing. Also, I only use routes I've done in the last 12 months to build my pyramid. So if I somehow get stuck on a multi-month mega project, as the struggle-fest goes on, some of the building blocks in the lower tiers of my pyramid will fall off, and I will have to redpoint some other routes to complete my pyramid again. This will keep my base fresh and give me a chance to accomplish something instead of failing repeatedly.
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Post by ehowell on Jan 13, 2017 7:18:29 GMT -7
The 12 month pyramid is a good idea. I struggle with deciding on when old sends are no longer meaningful . Of course, by using a 12 month pyramid it basically forces you to stick to short-term projects to maintain a pretty strong base. That may be good for you and I, but maybe not for more elite climbers?
I hate to talk about myself specifically, but maybe this will help the discussion. I sent a 12d in the last year in 12-15 tries, and it might have been on the low end of the grade. I then set out last season to send another 12d, which is generally considered to sit at hard 12d, even 13a by some. I got to a point where I had a pretty good one hang status, but the move I was falling on was so low percentage (even off the hang), that I decided to shelve it and move onto a 12c to salvage the season. I quit my original goal route after about 15 tries (there's a pattern with me), and I battled with whether or not that was the right decision. To some, that's just getting started! Ultimately I decided I didn't want to be the guy hanging at the same spot for 6 weeks with nothing to show for it, but it really was one move! I'm sure I could send the route eventually, but I didn't think it would make me a better climber.
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Post by climbnkev on Jan 13, 2017 7:19:37 GMT -7
I do use the pyramid, but the debate is still valid. If I've done a 5.12d and it took me three tries, then I'm probably ready for 5.13. If, however, I have a good pyramid on paper but each of those sends took a major siege, I would say I'm not ready despite what the pyramid is telling me. I would say that the pyramid would tell you that you are ready for another siege if all of the routes on it took major effort. I think it is awesome when you can do a route that is really hard for you in a few attempts but then you have to ask if maybe you are not trying hard enough? The question of worth in any endeavor is one that can only be answered by the participant. The big question is what really drives you to continue to push yourself. For some it is the satisfaction of the flash or onsight. For others it is the process of the big project. Can we really say which has more merit? I think the letdown you feel after finally sending a hard project you really worked hard on is normal part of the cycle. The more effort you put into something the harder it is to finally let it go. As a polar opposite example to the always projecting routes way beyond your limit I can use myself. I onsight most all V6's, and about half the V7's in our gym, but haven't climbed a single V8. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that I have a serious project avoidance mentality. I think the driving factor on the difficulty of projects you choose to endure should be determined by the amount of time you actually get to spend climbing. If you climb 3-4 times a week and/or going on month long climbing trips to single areas then it would make sense to choose harder projects to work as you have more time to devote. If you only get out one day a week ( or month ) then you would probably learn better on easier projects that you could see through to completion in a reasonable amount of time. Mark, I would be psyched to get out climbing in the next month with you. I have a hard time getting the family excited about climbing adventures this time of the year.
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Post by ehowell on Jan 13, 2017 7:22:23 GMT -7
And for the record, I definitely haven't sent 12d in three tries! That was a hypothetical example
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Post by climbnkev on Jan 13, 2017 7:33:28 GMT -7
Regarding your specific case I would say you made the right choice if the move was low percentage even off the hang. You may have been able to build a simulator and work the move in your training, but it's pretty hard to gain power during your peak if you are following a periodized training program.
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