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Post by alexandra on Apr 14, 2016 10:23:24 GMT -7
I am approaching the end of my first Power Phase in a week and, unlike the Strength phase, I have found it hard to measure, or even see any quantifiable improvement. At the end of Hangboarding, I could feel my grip being stronger (plus I could quantifiably see progress on several grips by adding weight). However, after 3 LB sessions and 3 Campus sessions (and 4 days of "performance/limit climbing" outdoors), I have found it hard to tell if anything at all has changed in my power. I guess that question is answered easier on the campus board, but my first three sessions were kind of exploratory, so I really did not have a consistent plan in order to see progress. I will have my 4th campus session today and report back. Regarding limit bouldering thought, I am making absolutely no progress on my limit boulders (except for my first session, where I went from not being able to get close to the holds to being able to touch them at least). I fail on the same moves, where it is usually a dynamic throw to a smallish hold. I can touch the holds pretty consistently but not even close to latching them. Moreover, even during hard bouldering I don't feel any more powerful and perform about the same (or some times even worse than) I did at the end of the strength phase. Doing some self-evaluation, I could potentially contribute this lack of progress to three possible factors: 1) I am not really that motivated to "go all out" at the gym. Somehow, I always climb better outdoors. I do try to summon my "try hard" mind, but I am not sure I ever feel the same energy that I feel when I am bouldering hard stuff on real rock. 2) My limit boulder problems are too hard. I didn't think so at the start, since I could throw and touch the holds, but I have seen no progress in my contact strength... 3) I don't rest enough, story of my life. During the strength phase, I did crossfit and gymnastics, often two workouts a day, except for 24 hours before I was hang boarding (when I would typically go to the gym in the afternoon and do a crossfit workout plus supplemental exercises after hang boarding). I could some how manage strength training with very little rest and still saw gains that were measurable and could feel them when I got back to climbing. Now my power phase coincides with a "strength gains" phase at crossfit, for which I pretty much only lift 2X a week, for one hour at a time with 2-3 full days rest between my lifting days (I have absolutely no idea how I convinced myself to do that, it took a lot of discipline to not train all the time). So my week looks something like : Monday- Heavy Lifting, Tuesday-Limit Bouldering, Wednesday- Supplemental Exercises, Gymnastics (about 3 hours total, back to back usually), Thursday- WBL, Campus, Friday- heavy lifting, maybe Supplemental exercises, Gymnastics (3-4 hours total, usually back to back), Saturday-rest of some sort if I find the internal strength to do so, Sunday- limit bouldering, etc. So I know that probably item (3) is the limiting factor and I know I need to rest more, I am working on that  But at the same time, how come I managed through strength with even less rest than I take now ( I used to workout twice a day and did a month long crossfit competition at the same time) while I cannot see the same improvement with power? Any other reasons/ideas as to what to do? Other suggestions? thanks! |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 14, 2016 13:46:11 GMT -7
I am approaching the end of my first Power Phase in a week and...I have found it hard to measure Ya, that can be a problem. Like you said, campusing is good for that. Obviously your campus board is a shit show, so that might make it tough to see progress on paper, but hopefully if nothing else the moves you've been doing are feeling easier and easier, even if they aren't getting bigger. For LBing or Hard Bouldering, it helps to work on a fixed set of problems so that (hopefully) you can see yourself making progress through the phase. If you have your own wall you can return to old LB problems and try to repeat them more quickly, etc. That can be very rewarding. Regarding limit bouldering thought, I am making absolutely no progress on my limit boulders (except for my first session, where I went from not being able to get close to the holds to being able to touch them at least). I fail on the same moves, where it is usually a dynamic throw to a smallish hold. I can touch the holds pretty consistently but not even close to latching them. Your problems are likely too hard. Another possibility is that you aren't spending enough time on them. For a really tough move, you may have to work it for a while to see progress. However, at your level of experience, I don't think it would be super productive for you to spend 30 minutes on a single move that you aren't even close to doing. I would take a step back and try some things that have the same characteristics of a LB, but you can at least do all the moves in your first session. Moreover, even during hard bouldering I don't feel any more powerful and perform about the same (or some times even worse than) I did at the end of the strength phase. Doing some self-evaluation, I could potentially contribute this lack of progress to three possible factors: 1) I am not really that motivated to "go all out" at the gym. Somehow, I always climb better outdoors. I do try to summon my "try hard" mind, but I am not sure I ever feel the same energy that I feel when I am bouldering hard stuff on real rock. You're not alone. That can be a real problem with the Power Phase. I've certainly squandered seasons by having nothing motivating to work on during the Power Phase (so instead of LBing, I just end up bouldering, which is not the same thing). I find I have to have several problems that I think are really cool (in addition to being built the right way and the right difficulty) to get me psyched on trying them even when I know success is unlikely. Really liking an indoor problem makes a huge difference for me. Otherwise I get distracted. (Fortunately I spend a shit ton of time campusing, so even when I get distracted I'm still getting some useful power training.) So, if there's something you can do to make your objective indoor problems more psych-inducing, do that. I know many people find it helpful to work things in a group. Ya, I can't wait for you to stop embarrassing the rest of us with your Herculean work capacity  Certainly it would be better if you quit all that other stuff, but like you said, relative to your Strength Phase, you dialed it way back. That said, there is something about hangboarding that makes it possible to do well despite a lot of general fatigue. On many occasions I've cranked out a worthy HB session despite the flu or other debilitating general fatigue. I think the reason is that hangboarding hardly taxes your body's energy systems (relative to, say, riding a bike, or even pull-ups). So just because you can get away with all the extra stuff during the Strength Phase, doesn't mean you can the rest of the cycle. In particular, your Sunday - Tuesday schedule is mind-boggling (and body-aching, just reading about it). Any other reasons/ideas as to what to do? Other suggestions? You probably already know all this, but if not, check out this blog post on "bouldering for power": rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/2013/12/11/bouldering-for-power/You may also find this interesting (but probably not): rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/2014/02/26/the-most-important-phase/ |
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Post by daustin on Apr 14, 2016 14:41:44 GMT -7
Yeah, HBing really seems to localize the exhaustion in my fingers/forearms. Hard workouts in other phases (LB/campusing, LBCs, route intervals, bouldering on a rope, redpoint attempts) tend to be much more physically draining. I can't imagine trying to sustain a workout schedule like the one you posted.
A big part of training is committing to tradeoffs/sacrifices, and it sounds like you need to decide what tradeoff you'd rather make -- a full, multi-discipline workout schedule that likely interferes with your power/climbing performance, or a reduced workout schedule in the power/PE/performance phases in order to obtain more reliable climbing-related gains.
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Post by alexandra on Apr 14, 2016 14:52:35 GMT -7
thanks Mark!
Would it make more sense for me to spend more time/more sessions campusing if I can't find anything super motivating to work on limit bouldering (I don't have control on the problems at the gym). Also, I think my main problem working the moves is that I don't know what to do differently in order to complete them. Perhaps this is lack of experience, but I really keep trying the same move, doing everything I can and nothing seems to change. I do feel that a slight correction on body position/foot position might make a difference but I am not aware of what that would be. I was super excited to enter the Power phase, I love all things power (even though I am not so good at it), but now it seems to nor be going so well...Also, from what I understand, it is not advised to do more than 5 campus sessions per power phase, is that correct? It seems very short, compared to the 10-12 hang board sessions I did.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 14, 2016 15:25:13 GMT -7
Would it make more sense for me to spend more time/more sessions campusing if I can't find anything super motivating to work on limit bouldering ? That is what I do. Whether or not it makes sense? Well, campusing has its limitations, mostly lack of specificity. I think it would be better for you to find some easier problems and work those, especially since your campus board is such a disaster. Also, I think my main problem working the moves is that I don't know what to do differently in order to complete them. Perhaps this is lack of experience, but I really keep trying the same move, doing everything I can and nothing seems to change. I do feel that a slight correction on body position/foot position might make a difference but I am not aware of what that would be. Some of this can be answered in that thread we had a while back about how to work dynos. Hopefully your aim is improving each time, you're trying a little bit harder to latch each time, and you're experimenting with different body positions and movement initiation. Ultimately though, I think your best bet in the near term is to work some easier problems so you can actually progress through this process several times per session, before getting bogged down in an impossible move. Also, if you haven't already, you should try a power spot. Also, from what I understand, it is not advised to do more than 5 campus sessions per power phase, is that correct? It seems very short, compared to the 10-12 hang board sessions I did. The reason for this is that ideally you would be focusing more on bouldering, which is much more specific than campusing. Campusing can be hard on the joints as well, so we try to be conservative when prescribing it. Considering the state of your campus board, I recommend staying the course with LBing, only choose some easier problems/moves to train on. |
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Post by Lundy on Apr 14, 2016 18:04:15 GMT -7
Alexandra,
I agree with everything Mark said, but the other point that I think is really important to make is that sometimes you just don't send your LB problems. Or even make progress on the HB. I find my power gains tend to come by being able to make "limit" campus moves a bit easier. I probably only add another rung every 2-3 cycles or so. Maybe that's anomalous and my old body isn't responding to the training like some others in this forum... Either way, it's important to keep in mind that progress isn't always obvious during this phase. There have been problems that I've felt miles from day after day after day, with no indication that I'm making progress, then one morning I jump on it and am ridiculously close, and the next session I send it.
All that to say, the power phase is actually the hardest phase mentally, in my opinion, as it's where you see the least tangible progress. So just hang in there. You'll get there.
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Post by brendann on Apr 14, 2016 18:06:53 GMT -7
A crew of strong peers would be priceless in this situation.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 14, 2016 19:48:22 GMT -7
... the power phase is actually the hardest phase mentally, in my opinion, as it's where you see the least tangible progress. So just hang in there. You'll get there. +1 |
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Sander
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Post by Sander on Apr 15, 2016 0:56:34 GMT -7
Hi Alexandra! I think I have a handicap that is pretty similar to yours: an obnoxiously stubborn deep belief that I really have to do a lot of cross fit type training when I'm giving my fingers/forearms a break. I can relate to that and I think it has its benefits. There's one big pitfall though and I think you're stepping into it, just as I do every once in a while.
When you describe not feeling super psyched to try really hard and lacking a sharp power edge, that rings a bell with me: I've come to acknowledge those as symptoms of overtraining. Continue down that road and you'll loose motivation to train completely. I've been there a few times and although it's rather easy to solve (take a break), it's best to react quickly. When I feel like that, I dial back a bit or take a few days break, until I feel psyched to train and try hard again. Works like a charm and usually I'm surprised by how fit and strong I feel after that short break. The longer you wait with taking the break, the longer it'll have to be.
I don't think it's necessarily bad to go deep enough to border on overtraining, as long as you recognize when to taper off. It's basically the idea behind classic periodization: going really hard for a few weeks (typically 3 weeks, the 2nd being the toughest) and than take a week 'rest' by training at a much lower intensity and volume.
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Post by alexandra on Apr 15, 2016 5:44:09 GMT -7
The reason for this is that ideally you would be focusing more on bouldering, which is much more specific than campusing. Campusing can be hard on the joints as well, so we try to be conservative when prescribing it. Considering the state of your campus board, I recommend staying the course with LBing, only choose some easier problems/moves to train on. Ah, yes my campus board is definitely a shit show I don't think I want to spend too much time on this particular board. However, once my climbing gym builds a proper one, would you give me a rough idea on how would I change my power phase schedule to incorporate more campus boarding and how many campus sessions should I do (at the most, and assuming I am healthy) per phase, if I wanted to replace some of my limit bouldering with campusing like the training plan you follow? I really like seeing quantifiable progress, and I think this is a bigger factor/motivator in how successful is my training overall (I am a mathematician, and I speak numbers ;p) |
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Post by colinobrien on Apr 15, 2016 7:09:22 GMT -7
I'm now in my third or fourth power phase, and I definitely agree that gains can be hard to see. But I've come to think of the power phase as more consolidating and recruiting the gains made in the strength phase. I'm not a particularly dynamic climber, nor do I tend to give it my all very often. It end to be pretty conservative and rely much more on technique and endurance. During the power phase, I really focus on 100% effort and pushing super, super hard on dynamic movement (like the campus board). As a result, I usually have a few days during the PE where I feel like I'm floating up problems. The gains are relatively quick, and are much more psychological than measurable. For a numbers person, this is frustrating for sure. But trust the program! You'll see gains!
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Post by jlarson on May 4, 2016 13:53:52 GMT -7
All that to say, the power phase is actually the hardest phase mentally, in my opinion, as it's where you see the least tangible progress. So just hang in there. You'll get there. The power phase is the one phase in the program that I haven't really "got" yet and it's exactly for this reason. My goals are mostly for bouldering so I don't ARC during my base phase. Rather I try to boulder for volume within a 2 hour gym session. I track total climbs, V sum, and V average. What I then try to do is during the power phase I try to halve the total climbs and double the V average on two days and do a campus session once a week. It's still not exactly perfect...I still haven't walked out of a power phase thinking "Yes! Nailed it!" but it's getting closer. Quantifying the process helps, me at least, with the mental sogginess of the power phase. |
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dsm
New Member
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Post by dsm on Jun 15, 2017 22:52:07 GMT -7
I know it's old, but I'm glad I found this thread and some others. I just got back from my first LB session of this cycle (my 4th) and I fell on the same places on all three of my LB problems at least 4 times each, without getting anywhere close to latching the next holds. And I'm not on the wall for long so it just feels really hard to know if I'm getting anything out of this at all other than a mental beat down. My spouse actually asked me if mental-beat-down-get-back-up training was part of the idea of LBing and I thought not.
So, is there a way to know if you're getting something out of it? It looks from here it's hard to quantify other than seeing slight progress after a session or two?
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Post by tetrault on Jun 16, 2017 10:57:33 GMT -7
4 attempts and 4 falls is what I would consider just warming up to giving a limit problem some real attempts. This is after some ARC, and a Boulder ladder warmup too.
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dsm
New Member
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Post by dsm on Jun 16, 2017 22:07:54 GMT -7
Yeah, I fell "at least" 4x on each of the 3 problems, which is probably a bit conservative. I probably actually tried that much on one problem and a few more on the other two. But it sounds like you put in many more attempts on LB problems. How many tries do you give per LB problem?
I do 20 mins easy bouldering, 30-40 mins hard bouldering, then 30 LBing, so I'm ready/maybe too ready when it's time to get on my LBs. I think I might try (a) picking easier LB problems, and/or (b) as you indicated, just putting in more attempts on 2 LBs instead of 3.
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Certainly it would be better if you quit all that other stuff, but like you said, relative to your Strength Phase, you dialed it way back. That said, there is something about hangboarding that makes it possible to do well despite a lot of general fatigue. On many occasions I've cranked out a worthy HB session despite the flu or other debilitating general fatigue. I think the reason is that hangboarding hardly taxes your body's energy systems (relative to, say, riding a bike, or even pull-ups). So just because you can get away with all the extra stuff during the Strength Phase, doesn't mean you can the rest of the cycle. In particular, your Sunday - Tuesday schedule is mind-boggling (and body-aching, just reading about it).
