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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 14, 2016 18:20:07 GMT -7
I could see them yesterday, but not today.
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Post by climber511 on Dec 14, 2016 22:04:43 GMT -7
insert code here My home wall. It has climbing on both sides (many more holds are up now) - Eight degree angle - 8' wide and 11.5' tall. At my level it's a good ARC wall for now. I have ready access to the larger wall shown here in town also.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 15, 2016 21:07:59 GMT -7
So is it a slab on the backside? You could make a V-shape if you wanted the backside to be more challenging/useful.
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Post by climber511 on Dec 16, 2016 7:24:35 GMT -7
So is it a slab on the backside? You could make a V-shape if you wanted the backside to be more challenging/useful. Yes Mark the back side is a slab but I have to have access to the workbench back there with larger projects. I'm planning to come out on the end with a steeper section - but not sure how steep to make it. I don't climb really steep routes (mostly vertical to say 10 degrees) and having read your blog post where you talk about specificity and how most walls are unrealistically steep to what we actually climb outdoors - I'm thinking 20 to 25 degrees. Thoughts? Marks Blog Post I referenced above - Above I hinted at the other major pitfall of bouldering, when I wrote that Limit Bouldering should feature realistic moves. It is well-known that training must be “specific” to be effective. That is, if you are training for a route whose crux involves half-pad crimps up a 10-degree overhang, you would be best served training on half-pad crimps, and Limit Bouldering on a 10-degree overhang (if you climb routes in North America, it is quite rare that you ever climb anything steeper than 30-degrees overhanging, even at crags like the Red, Maple, and Rifle).
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Post by climber511 on Dec 17, 2016 8:33:30 GMT -7
I didn't set out to build a slab - I built the overhanging side and my grand daughter wanted to climb the other side so I finished it for climbing. Surprisingly it's kind of fun to mess around on. I do get a good foot strength workout on it which is a benefit considering all the trad I do.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 17, 2016 8:59:30 GMT -7
Ya, way better than not using it at all.
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Post by climber511 on Dec 17, 2016 10:55:16 GMT -7
Ya, way better than not using it at all. Mark - still looking for advice on the angle to build my new addition to the wall. Considering that i never climb highly overhanging climbs and your comments I quoted about specificity and angle - what would be your recommendation as to angle. Almost all the climbing I do is withing 10 degrees of vertical with a few bulges steeper. I'm thinking 20 to 25 degrees and no more than 30. Anything much greater than 20 is somewhat problematic as to taking up space in my building that is used for other things and structural issues preclude adjustable.. Marks Blog Post I referenced above - Above I hinted at the other major pitfall of bouldering, when I wrote that Limit Bouldering should feature realistic moves. It is well-known that training must be “specific” to be effective. That is, if you are training for a route whose crux involves half-pad crimps up a 10-degree overhang, you would be best served training on half-pad crimps, and Limit Bouldering on a 10-degree overhang (if you climb routes in North America, it is quite rare that you ever climb anything steeper than 30-degrees overhanging, even at crags like the Red, Maple, and Rifle).
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 17, 2016 16:26:07 GMT -7
I would think around 20 degrees would be good. If you really like the 10 degree wall, you could just do another one, but I would probably go for variety. I think its nice to have indoor walls that are a bit steeper than what you're training for, since plastic holds always seem to be a bit better than real holds. And that's a good thing, because it helps keep our skin intact for real rock climbing. Plus steeper walls are just so fun.
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Post by climber511 on Dec 17, 2016 17:32:18 GMT -7
Thanks Mark - appreciate it.
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Post by climber511 on Dec 25, 2016 10:03:45 GMT -7
I would think around 20 degrees would be good. If you really like the 10 degree wall, you could just do another one, but I would probably go for variety. I think its nice to have indoor walls that are a bit steeper than what you're training for, since plastic holds always seem to be a bit better than real holds. And that's a good thing, because it helps keep our skin intact for real rock climbing. Plus steeper walls are just so fun. Wall addition ended up being 24 degrees to utilize existing structure as is. Seems good the one time I've tried it.
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Post by climbnkev on Dec 28, 2016 7:16:38 GMT -7
Hi Guys, Sorry to hijack this post with a question but I think it's relevant. I'm in the process of designing a new home gym and struggling with wall angles. As I plan to have a Moonboard as the main attraction for one wall my original plan was to have one 40 degree wall and a second 20 degree wall, both at 16' long. I've been building walls for a while now and in the past have always stuck with 15 and 30 (and sometimes 45) mostly to keep the math simple. 30 degrees has always been the money wall and I have built about 5 home walls for people with just that angle for a majority of their terrain.
I'm beginning to get concerned I will regret the decision to have 2 relatively steep walls. I know steep terrain is one of my weaknesses, and one of my favorite crags is Rifle. I just know from past experience that simple walls see the most use so I don't know that I want to introduce a third angle to the design. Designing around the moon board is a key component to my psyche to build a new wall as I live a ways out from the city and will not likely have many sessions with a bunch of other climbers. I know I am not a great route setter and so would like to get the advantage of a thousand other routes ( and possibly setters) that I can bring into my home gym.
Mark, if you are reading could you give your input on how you decided on the main wall angles in the Lazy H? 8 and 35 degrees? If you were building the Lazy H again would you keep those angles? Ted, how do you guys like your decided angles now that you have a year of use on that wall? Anyone else care to comment on the difference between 30 and 40 degrees and it's training cross over?
For a reference, I've always been more of an all around climber but topped out around .12+ sport, V7 bouldering, .12+ trad a long time ago. Last couple years I have been working my way back into top shape focusing on sport climbing and hope to push into the .13- grade this year. Short term goal routes, bottom half of Double Stout, Stuffed Wolf, Beer Run, and Hand me the Cantina Boy. Long term goal routes: the Legend at Thunder Ridge, Living in Fear, and Golden Gate on El Cap. My wife climbs .11 now and is training to get back to climbing .12's, my 9yr old son climbs .10 inside, and the 5 year old mostly swings on the rope. Hoping to build walls that the whole family can enjoy, but know I will be the primary user.
Thanks!
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Post by tedwelser on Dec 28, 2016 12:08:04 GMT -7
Hi Guys, Sorry to hijack this post with a question but I think it's relevant. I'm in the process of designing a new home gym and struggling with wall angles. As I plan to have a Moonboard as the main attraction for one wall my original plan was to have one 40 degree wall and a second 20 degree wall, both at 16' long. I've been building walls for a while now and in the past have always stuck with 15 and 30 (and sometimes 45) mostly to keep the math simple. 30 degrees has always been the money wall and I have built about 5 home walls for people with just that angle for a majority of their terrain. I'm beginning to get concerned I will regret the decision to have 2 relatively steep walls. I know steep terrain is one of my weaknesses, and one of my favorite crags is Rifle. I just know from past experience that simple walls see the most use so I don't know that I want to introduce a third angle to the design. Designing around the moon board is a key component to my psyche to build a new wall as I live a ways out from the city and will not likely have many sessions with a bunch of other climbers. I know I am not a great route setter and so would like to get the advantage of a thousand other routes ( and possibly setters) that I can bring into my home gym. Mark, if you are reading could you give your input on how you decided on the main wall angles in the Lazy H? 8 and 35 degrees? If you were building the Lazy H again would you keep those angles? Ted, how do you guys like your decided angles now that you have a year of use on that wall? Anyone else care to comment on the difference between 30 and 40 degrees and it's training cross over? For a reference, I've always been more of an all around climber but topped out around .12+ sport, V7 bouldering, .12+ trad a long time ago. Last couple years I have been working my way back into top shape focusing on sport climbing and hope to push into the .13- grade this year. Short term goal routes, bottom half of Double Stout, Stuffed Wolf, Beer Run, and Hand me the Cantina Boy. Long term goal routes: the Legend at Thunder Ridge, Living in Fear, and Golden Gate on El Cap. My wife climbs .11 now and is training to get back to climbing .12's, my 9yr old son climbs .10 inside, and the 5 year old mostly swings on the rope. Hoping to build walls that the whole family can enjoy, but know I will be the primary user. Thanks! hey Kev- I think if you got used to 15 and 30, you will find 20 and 40 to be about the same, with the added bonus that the 40 is a moonboard, which is a huge plus. I think you will be happy with 20 and 40. [what is your total width of your wall area? 16 feet or 32 feet? What is the ceiling height?] The BetaFish wall is 22 feet wide. In addition to the 20 and 40 degree 8 foot wide panels we have the 3 feet of aretes on the 40 and the transition area. These have been great additions to the basic angles, and add some interesting nuance. We have not experienced the full value of the sections beyond the 40 degree because we need a few hundred more holds. In the short term we spent money on the landing mats, which have been super, but they eat up a lot of money at a foot thick for the 12 ft ceiling. We are happy with the BetaFish wall, and will be even more happy with it when we get the rest of the holds. However, I would say that it is just 1/2 of the walls that we have, and the other half, the Dojo, is much steeper in general, and is much lower to the ground. I really like having both of them. The Dojo has a 30, 55, and 70 in addition to a wide 85 degree roof. The Dojo also has aretes, dihedrals, and small vert sections. You don't really get full routes at the steep angles of the Dojo, but you certainly get crux sections, and boulder problems that are steep, and training on them is very helpful in terms of core strength and overall fitness. Plus, boulder problems with some steep moves are fun. I just spent a few hours at Rock Mill in Akron Ohio. It was the standard color coded modern gym thing, and it was fun. But to be honest, I would much rather have our two home walls than a gym like that. There are lots of reasons, but one of them is that they did not have any terrain steeper than 45 degrees. If you have 16 to 20 feet of width I would do 20 and 40 degrees. If you have 32 feet, I would consider doing something slightly more creative with the additional space.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 28, 2016 15:44:44 GMT -7
I plan to have a Moonboard as the main attraction I've vaguely wanted a Moonboard since I first heard about the concept, but all these recent threads have me thinking specifics. My major challenge is that the Lazy H, as it currently stands, is not tall enough for a moonboard. Fortunately moonshine shacks seem to be encouraged around these parts so I'm thinking the best solution is to just build an addition onto the east end of the existing barn.... ...my original plan was to have one 40 degree wall and a second 20 degree wall, both at 16' long...in the past have always stuck with 15 and 30 (and sometimes 45)...I'm beginning to get concerned I will regret the decision to have 2 relatively steep walls. Mark, if you are reading could you give your input on how you decided on the main wall angles in the Lazy H? 8 and 35 degrees? If you were building the Lazy H again would you keep those angles? It really depends on how you like to use your wall. I almost never boulder on my 8 degree wall, it's just not steep enough to be enjoyable (and it's pretty hard to make hard problems on such a slabby wall). But it's great for warming up, and pretty good for ARCing (though lately when I ARC I've been forcing myself to stay on the steeper walls as much as possible). If I were building the barn again I doubt I would replicate that wall. I certainly wouldn't want a 16'-wide 8-deg wall. For that wall I just eyeballed an angle that looked good to me at the time. I was also constrained by the size of the pre-existing structure, so making the 8 degree wall less-steep allowed more room for a steeper wall on the opposite side. Anyway, if your primary use is bouldering, and you're either not into ARCing, or you favor fitness over technique training in your ARCing, then I think the 20 degree wall would be no problem. The 40 degree wall could be trickier. I say that because I originally built the Lazy H steep wall at 40, and I found it so much different than what I was used to that I actually tore it down and re-built it at 35 (think about how much you'd have to dislike a wall to do that!). My goal had been to replicate a wall at my old gym in Albuquerque that I really loved, and I think I just guessed that it was 40 degrees. Once I started climbing on it I realized I had f-ed up. It's hard to believe that 5 degress makes such a big difference, but I could easily notice it. I've been super happy with 35, I wouldn't change that at all. It's plenty steep to train for the stuff I climb. Although considering "the stuff I climb" is rarely steeper than 20, it makes you wonder how much wall angle really matters. I feel like there is some threshold where you're no longer pulling axially, and instead pulling into the wall, so if your goal routes require axial pulling (which yours do), then you want to include that in your training. And I think you want the angle to be close enough to your goal terrain that you can still use similar hold types. Anyway, if you're used to 30, I think 40 would feel much steeper. Maybe that could be a good thing, but none of your goal routes are particularly steep. Maybe Cantina Boy, but the steepest part of that route is pretty juggy, I think the crux is more vert-ish. I would consider taking an inclinometer to any of the local gyms during a training session and measuring the different walls, noting what you like and what you don't. You're always welcome to stop by the barn too. I'm off all this week. In summary, I completely agree that simple walls are best, but maybe a good comproimise would be a 35 that adjoins the 40 Moonboard section in such a way that you could easily climb between them. I would definitely keep the Moonboard at 40, because if not, then what's the point? That is unless you want to build an adjustable-angle Moonboard. You surely have the skills to pull that off. Alternatively, maybe we could start a movement to create a 30-degree Muneored (and design it in English units, haha).
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Post by climbnkev on Dec 29, 2016 18:50:12 GMT -7
Great responses guys, thanks for taking the time to write them. Ted I know what you mean regarding variety but I have a pretty awesome gym ( Earthreks Golden) that's only 35 minutes from home. Also I've come to the conclusion after over a dozen home wall builds that its better to build a simple wall and add volumes for variety than building too much complexity into the wall. I can build a 12x16 wall in the same time it takes for a single good transition if I already have my panels drilled and t-nutted. I'm cursed with a perfectionist mentality when it comes to my own projects.
Mark, thanks for the great advice. I think I knew intuitively that 40 degrees was going to be too steep for the majority of my bouldering. Power endurance is really a weakness for me, so a large single plane at a reasonable angle seems best for this as it is easier to link problems together. 30 degrees just seems to be the sweet spot or goldilocks angle for me.
As for the plans for the new gym I am still trying to decide my best course of action. The good news is that my wife is on board with the idea of a home gym, so now I just have to decide which plan is best.
Option #1 - My attached garage has a flat 22x23 roof deck patio that is adjacent to my back door. I could extend my roof line and cover the entire patio then build a 15x16 gym that would have 13' of height at the peak of the ceiling. In some ways this would be the most ideal situation as the foundation and part of the structure is already there and it would be 6 feet from my back door. The challenge is that it would need to be permitted as an addition which would require engineered plans. I would also have to use more expensive windows and siding that matched the rest of the house and work around the constraints of building something that would not detract from the homes value.
Option #2 - Buy or build a shed to put on my backyard. I have enough room for a 16x20 shed by my house that is already graded. I have ultimate flexibility with this scenario, but it is the most work. While I could get a shed kit built for a reasonable price I would probably want to design and build it myself. This would also require demo'ing an existing 10x12 shed with attached lean-to and moving 3 cords of firewood.........not to mention finding a new home for everything in the shed.
Option #3 - Build an enclosed climbing wall shed on the patio. Max size would be 10 x 16 because I need to maintain access to the drain for the rest of the roof and don't want to mess with the roof membrane/reslope and change the drain. Although this was my original plan, I had kind of written this idea off because this would mean I only had enough space for a single wall. Mark's brilliant idea of an adjustable angle Moon board changed all that. I currently have an adjustable angle (15 and 30) 5x8 systems wall that I use for warming up and specific training. I will have to think about the options for supersizing the mechanism. This is something I could pull off in a couple weekends and already have the supplies for a majority of the build. This option is looking much more promising!
Thanks again for the help guys, and for the offer to come over Mark. I will definitely take you up on that sometime soon. Let me know when you are ready for the Moonboard addition and I will come help. I think you could just blow out one gable end of the barn, put in two footers and drop a shed roof on the back of the wall. Also think the idea of a RPB (Rock Prodigy Board) could really work. Get e-grips to supply the holds, it would be sick!
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 29, 2016 21:16:33 GMT -7
No problem man, I'm stoked to have a Moonboard in the JeffCo foothills! ...Option #1 ...The challenge is that it would need to be permitted as an addition which would require engineered plans...and work around the constraints of building something that would not detract from the homes value. Option #2 - Buy or build a shed...I have enough room for a 16x20 shed by my house that is already graded...it is the most work.... You're in the business, I'm not. That said, based on my two experiences with the County, I gotta think it would be easily as much work dealing with permitting and all the bullshit that comes with it. Not to mention the expense of permitting and engineers' stamps. When you throw in the extra cost to maintain your home's value, it seems like a no-brainer to me (option 2). Building a shed is crazy simple. Especially if the climbing wall is the primary load-bearing structure (which you'd have to build anyway) and the exterior shed is just needed for water-proofing. (*Not to mention the marital ramifications of tinkering with your nest for the sake of rock climbing, haha.) (**Consider too whether adding square-footage to your existing home would trigger a Defensible Space permit, and whether that's a problem for you).
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