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Post by jetjackson on Jan 8, 2019 20:58:07 GMT -7
That's when i started playing with the Horst Threshold Intervals which are better suited to that type of terrain. Yeah, I found the same thing, I'm making a lot of small moves, rather than big moves, and I'm moving significantly less that I would in ARC on 10-15 degree terrain. Maybe 40 hand movements in 10 minutes vs. maybe 200 hand movements in 10 minutes when I'm doing ARC on auto-belay. What are the Horst Threshold Intervals? Do they train that aerobic system?
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Post by erick on Jan 8, 2019 21:53:19 GMT -7
Horst’s opinion is that ARCing does not have a high enough intensity to really build the aerobic system as effectively as we want it to. Also it’s hard to maintain quality moves while the intensity so so low for so long. His intervals are a series of 5 to 8 reps of 3 to 5 minutes on with a 1-1 work rest ratio. The trick is that you work at a level that your exertion rate will be at around an 8 out of 10 by the end of your last rep. For me this means that I am really pushing that threshold on the last few reps with the last being kinda pumpy. He says to error on the side of them being too easy. I find the movement practice is much better and overall my moves are much harder than they would be while ARCing. But I have no way of knowing if it actually is a better workout for aerobic gains.
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Post by Chris W on Jan 9, 2019 3:44:24 GMT -7
I feel your pain with the heat, but don't be afraid to train in it. My barn isn't climate controlled, so it gets that hot in the summer. I wall off my hangboard for a little AC bubble but just suffer through everything else. I'll strip down to a pair of skimpy running shorts and aim two fans in my general direction.
The main issue I've discovered with ARC training on my steep wall (35 degrees) is that it will flair my elbow tendonitis if I go too long too soon. If all I had was a 40 degree wall, I'd probably build a small free-standing kick plate that I could set on the floor underneath the wall to use to "rest" the steep angle. It would still give you appropriate foot holds to use (as opposed to feet on the floor) and let you hold on at a more gentle angle to recover a bit.
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Post by acmesalute76 on Jan 9, 2019 8:50:53 GMT -7
Horst’s opinion is that ARCing does not have a high enough intensity to really build the aerobic system as effectively as we want it to. Also it’s hard to maintain quality moves while the intensity so so low for so long. His intervals are a series of 5 to 8 reps of 3 to 5 minutes on with a 1-1 work rest ratio. The trick is that you work at a level that your exertion rate will be at around an 8 out of 10 by the end of your last rep. For me this means that I am really pushing that threshold on the last few reps with the last being kinda pumpy. He says to error on the side of them being too easy. I find the movement practice is much better and overall my moves are much harder than they would be while ARCing. But I have no way of knowing if it actually is a better workout for aerobic gains. Am I wrong or is this exactly describing a PE workout? Personally, I find that trying to ARC on steep jugs either has me pumped too quickly, or has me feeling like I’m doing nothing for my fingers and just stressing my elbows and shoulders. I have a hard time finding that “light sweat/sustainable pump” zone that I can get on vertical terrain.
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Post by erick on Jan 9, 2019 14:19:09 GMT -7
That's what I though while reading his book. I sent him a few emails back and forth about it and according to Horst, its not PE. The majority of the workout should be well below the PE zone. The "on" duration is shorter so that you can work harder than you do in a typical ARC but your first several sets should only fatigue you. Its about half way through that you may be getting into threshold and PE zone. Once you cannot work without going anaerobic you cut your intensity back or end your workout. The line is kinda blurry I know, for Horst PE workouts are shorter duration than the Anderson LBC protocol and more intense.
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Post by cozisco on Jan 9, 2019 17:41:38 GMT -7
At the gyms I go to yeah, actually it's a speed wall - might be 15 degrees. No access to a 25-30 degree wall. Yeah, that's tough. Given the short hand movements, it doesn't sound like you'll get much skill development from ARCing on the 40* other than improving your ability to rest on jugs with a heel hook.
If it was me, I would:
1) predominantly ARC on the speed wall 2) maybe mix in a few sets of volume bouldering on the 40*, instead of the 10-min ARC sets or Horst thresholds (assuming you can set enough problems on your home wall) 3) focus outdoor mileage days on the steepest routes I can find at the appropriate difficulty, even doing the same route several time
4) make sure I have a good PE phase later in the season
I also don't mind ARCing in high temps. I just accept the fact that I sweat a lot. The biggest issue becomes keeping my skin chalked up and dry enough so it doesn't tear.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 9, 2019 18:03:04 GMT -7
That's what I though while reading his book. I sent him a few emails back and forth about it and according to Horst, its not PE. The majority of the workout should be well below the PE zone. The "on" duration is shorter so that you can work harder than you do in a typical ARC but your first several sets should only fatigue you. Its about half way through that you may be getting into threshold and PE zone. Once you cannot work without going anaerobic you cut your intensity back or end your workout. The line is kinda blurry I know, for Horst PE workouts are shorter duration than the Anderson LBC protocol and more intense. I hope you asked him to list all the hard routes that have been crushed as a result of this training method, lol.
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Post by Chris W on Jan 9, 2019 18:24:51 GMT -7
I hope you asked him to list all the hard routes that have been crushed as a result of this training method, lol. He lives in South Central PA, same as me. He's known locally for drilling pockets and having a robust ego.
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Post by jetjackson on Jan 9, 2019 19:10:49 GMT -7
Thanks. I think I'll mix it up between volume bouldering on the 40, and long ARC sessions on the speed wall routes, weather permitting, as per the feedback. Today we are blessed with overcast conditions and a high of 71f, so completely feasible to climb in the gym.
I continue to get better using the RPTM, so I'm inclined not to dabble too much.
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Post by erick on Jan 9, 2019 21:13:32 GMT -7
Great question, I bet if you asked him he would point to his kids.
I am no Horst disciple, I just started looking for other alternatives to the proven ARC when the walls I had access to no longer worked for it. There does seem to be a spectrum building for aerobic training within climbing. On the one side you have the ARC which is really similar to the long slow distance approach, on the other side you have others claiming the shorter more intense effort will give you the same or similar results. I have a buddy who has worked with Lattice and they recommended a aerobic protocol that seemed even more like PE than this. I think it was 1 min on and 1 min off for 20 minutes, as intense as you can go and still finish without falling. I have tried a few different approaches and what I currently use now that I have a 20* wall is the Bechtel protocol which is basically a series of shorter ARCs with specific boulder problems thrown in every few minutes to keep the movement quality high. It seems to work well for me but I have no idea whats best.
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Post by jetjackson on Jan 10, 2019 15:31:08 GMT -7
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