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Post by jessebruni on Apr 8, 2015 11:10:58 GMT -7
So I have a question about the way I've been approaching my training and I'm curious to get some opinions on it. I set a few long term goals for myself that seem either very ambitious, or downright impossible (I don't know enough to really know). At the beginning of the year I set a goal for the end of the year to do a local 13d which is a crimpy, power endurance testpiece. The route is only about 45 feet tall and is essentially a longish V9 boulder problem, to a bad rest, to another two move V7 or V8 boulder problem. At the time I made the goal I hadn't done a 13b yet but I'd done a few 13a's and I was quietly projecting a local 13b. Since then I've sent the 13b I was projecting, and then sent another one in 3 tries. I still have quite a way to go but I think it's possible to get there before the year is over. I also set one more long term goal. And that is to compete in, and make semi-finals, at ABS 20 (4 years out). I have no idea how hard this will actually be but I assume making semi's would require one to be able to flash V10/11 fairly consistently. Both of these long term goals means I need to get much, much, stronger. So the way I've been approaching my training is to essentially double down on strength and power by following the bouldering plan and severely shortening or even sometimes eliminating the performance phases.
I've done this for two reasons. The first being that I think it will allow me to make strength gains slightly faster by reducing the time between hangboard phases. The second is that performance phases seem to require goal routes/problems and I really don't have many. My local climbing area has lots of routes in the 5.6-5.12+ range, a few 5.13a's, less than 3 or 4 5.13b's, and 10 or 11 5.13c - 5.14b's. Most of these 10 or 11 routes which would be in project range are perpetually wet, dirty, and haven't been done in years. There are a handful of boulders scattered through the area, a decent number in the V9-V11 range, but these don't excite me very much. There is one more area that is owned by local climbers. It's a limestone cave with a plethora of 5.13-5.14's but access is tricky if you're not in the right circle and I'm not exactly in the right circle. So what all this means is that I have very few things to project and I've decided that instead of trying to peak for projects I'll just use the extra time to build more strength and power for long term improvement. I do plan to do one power-endurance phase at the end of the year before I go for this years goal route. I'm not an expert on periodization by any means, so I don't know if this approach will work for periodization or not. So I guess I have two questions:
1.) Does my approach seem viable, or does anyone have doubts that I may not have considered or know about?
2.) If the approach is viable, are there any special considerations I should be making, any specifics to focus on?
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Post by joev9 on Apr 8, 2015 12:26:11 GMT -7
My only thought was that there is a lot to learn about straight-up rock climbing during the performance phase (technique, projecting, trying really, really hard, getting beat down over and over again and then succeeding, etc.) that you won't get by focusing strictly on training. That said, I'm thinking of doing this over the summer as conditions suck around here and a performance phase wouldn't include much "performance" in July and August. However, I have been outdoor rock climbing for almost 25 years...
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Post by latestart on Apr 8, 2015 13:12:46 GMT -7
I agree with Joe. There's more to the performance phase than just sending your project. You're improving your technique and also working on your mental game.
Based on what I read in the RCTM and on this forum, it sounds like you need to take some time off from training before you begin a new cycle. It seems like there are two primary reasons for this time off from training:
- To give your body time to adapt and for hypertrophy to set in. The RCTM says that hypertrophy takes weeks to start happening, and that tendons and other connective tissue can take months or longer to adapt to training stimulus. If you go too hard, too fast, you're going to get hurt.
- Your body needs some time to "de-train". (I don't know if this is actually stated anywhere in the book, but Mark's talked about it a couple times on the forum. Especially in regards to using the hangboard as an injury rehabilitation tool.)
Based on the points above, it makes sense to take some time off from physical training (hangboard, campus, etc.). So it seems like you might as well make the most of this "downtime". Maybe you don't have any outdoor projects that you're psyched on in the near term, but your long term goal is to be onsighting / flashing hard boulder problems. Do a shortened performance phase (2-3 weeks instead of the 4? weeks in the RCTM) where your primary goal is to improve your flash / onsight ability (this could be done pretty effectively in the gym). Then take a week off and start a new cycle.
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Post by jessebruni on Apr 8, 2015 13:44:16 GMT -7
Thanks for the input guys. As far as technique goes I'm not super worried about that. I've been a physically weak climber for the last five and a half years (so the entire time I've been climbing) and I've always made up for it by technique and mental game. I know that they can still be improved, but neither is a limiting factor for me. I know how to project, and more importantly I make a point of actually thinking about what I do wrong and trying to improve. I still have the one hard project this year, and I think it's pretty feasible to have 2 or so hard projects each year. I just don't think I need as many performance phases per year if near term sending isn't as important to me.
As far as the flashing/onsighting thing I've been making that part of the power phase during on campus and limit boulering days. Basically at the end of my WBL's I do some "hard bouldering" and focus on flashing/onsighting as hard as I can. After 30-45 minutes of that I usually move on to limit bouldering or campusing.
As for the one week rest periods. I'm not concerned with those. I can handle taking a week off every 2-3 months, it's the performance phases that I feel are really cutting into my time that could be spent just starting another cycle.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 8, 2015 19:08:59 GMT -7
the way I've been approaching my training is to essentially double down on strength and power by following the bouldering plan and severely shortening or even sometimes eliminating the performance phases. I've done this for two reasons. The first being that I think it will allow me to make strength gains slightly faster by reducing the time between hangboard phases. You say "make strength gains slightly faster by reducing the time between hangboard phases." I can think of two ways to interpret this: 1: by reducing the time between Season 1's last HB workout and Season 2's 1st HB workout, you will de-train less, and so you will be starting the second season with a higher level of strength, allowing you to end at a higher level of strength (assuming a more or less fixed amount of strength gain per season) 2: You can fit more hangboard phases into a fixed amount of time. Say, four strength phases per calendar year instead of 3. In my experience, #1 doesn't work. 'Strength gain per season' is not fixed, and if you start from a higher base level, you will simply plateau sooner in the phase than usual. Of course that can further facilitate #2. The jury is still out on #2. I think it's likely that it does work. Logic tells me that it should, but I haven't been able to demonstrate it to my own satisfaction. For many years (~10) I did 3 seasons per year religiously, and then in 2013/2014 I switched to 4 seasons per year. I sent more stuff than usual*, but on paper I wouldn't say it made me significantly stronger than I would have been had I stuck with 3 seasons. This year I'm ging back to 3 seasons, mostly because I think that schedule better suits this year's goals. If I thought 4 seasons was markedly better, I would re-arrange my goals to suit a 4 season schedule. *I think there were a number of factors that contributed to this, but none of them were increased max strength/power.
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Post by Chris W on Apr 9, 2015 6:57:43 GMT -7
To piggy back on Jesse's questions: do you think power gains are cumulative?
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Post by latestart on Apr 9, 2015 7:56:11 GMT -7
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Post by jonfrisby on Apr 9, 2015 8:38:00 GMT -7
Mark, do you think it's possible that you were simply much closer to your body's peak potential than Jesse currently is, which may make it possible for (b) to be more effective in his case. To take this to the extreme I certainly think that having a 10b climber do 4 hang boards per year will get them further than 3 would. Obviously, this is offset by a lack of technique and intangible gains, but someone like Jesse might be in a sweet spot of not "needing" the technique and intangibles but also having enough room between his current strength level and his genetic potential?
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Post by jessebruni on Apr 9, 2015 8:39:23 GMT -7
Thanks for the reply Mark! I think I was more in the mindset of #2 than #1 in your post above. With #1 it seems like the logic quickly devolves from "hangboard more" to "hangboard all the time" in which case it seems obvious that a plateau would happen. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of trying to fit 4 strength phases into the year. For instance my current thought for this year is the following:
Mid Jan-Mid Feb = Strength 1 Mid Feb-April = Power 1/Semi performance April = Strength 2 May = Power 2 First Half June = Power Endurance 1 June 15-17 = Short trip to Rumney Remainder of June - July = Strength 3 August = Power 3 September = Strength 4 October = Power 4 November = Power Endurance 2/Performance December = Performance (hopefully send my goal route)
November and December are the best months for hard climbing in CenTex so I'm hoping this timing works out. This would obviously be a rough schedule and I would plan around it as necessary, but ultimately yes, I was hoping to get 4 strength phases and 4 power phases in throughout the year and use it as an experiment for the following years. If it felt like this year my strength and power markedly improved without any troubling side effects than I would continue this general outline through 2016-17.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 9, 2015 11:07:20 GMT -7
Mark, do you think it's possible that you were simply much closer to your body's peak potential than Jesse currently is, which may make it possible for (b) to be more effective in his case. To take this to the extreme I certainly think that having a 10b climber do 4 hang boards per year will get them further than 3 would. Obviously, this is offset by a lack of technique and intangible gains, but someone like Jesse might be in a sweet spot of not "needing" the technique and intangibles but also having enough room between his current strength level and his genetic potential? I think it's likely. A less-trained individual is usually going to see a greater response. I think age could be an important factor as well. My rate of improvement definitely seems to be slowing down. That could be because I'm nearer to my potential, or because I'm just too damn old. Perhaps a combination of the two.
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ken
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by ken on Apr 9, 2015 14:54:18 GMT -7
I think this is a really interesting topic and relates to one of my favorite articles on the RCTM site: rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/2014/07/29/reflections-on-the-time-value-of-climbing-ability/I've been trying to take the long-term approach ever since I started training in January 2014 rather than focusing on sending right now and I wonder if I'm doing the right thing pretty much all the time (does anyone NOT constantly question their approach and feel totally confident???) I've been climbing for 2.5 years now and live very close to the RRG. Strength and power are not my weaknesses. Endurance, technique, and lead head are my current weaknesses. Knowing this AND the fact that my local climbing area is known for steep enduro climbing, I still shorten the PE phase and skip the performance phase altogether in order to maximize the number of strength and power phases per calendar year for long-term improvement. I do this for a couple reasons: -I've read from multiple sources that finger strength tends to be the long-term bottleneck for improvement and takes years if not decades to develop. I figure I'll try to get a head start and sort out the other stuff later -During my first (and only) performance phase, I didn't really perform. When I started ARCing afterward, I started climbing harder and harder every weekend and it mostly had to do with the fact that I could rest much more effectively. At the Red, it seems like resting ability and MSS are more important than PE (at least in the 11's - I bet this changes at harder grades), so I have shortened my PE phase to 2 weeks and now consider my ARC phase and performance phase to be the same (ARC 3 days during the week and try to redpoint on the weekends). -I realize that if I wanted to improve my max redpoint immediately, I should focus on endurance, mileage, and projecting for awhile, but I'm still progressing with this current plan (11a to 12a max redpoint in 2014, though not on any very steep routes) and I feel like I'm maximizing my finger strength training while still getting in a decent amount of climbing mileage and enjoying the process -Most climbing areas aren't as steep as RRG, and while I may live nearby now, that may very well change in the near or distant future. I worry that I may be setting myself up for injury by trying to expedite finger-strength gain early in my climbing career. I ask myself when enough will be enough and when I should start focusing on what I perceive to be my actual weaknesses. I worry that I'm deviating from a proven plan used successfully by many based on my own very brief experience. Oh well, I guess time will tell.
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Post by Chris W on Apr 9, 2015 20:30:58 GMT -7
Don't know how I missed that thread. Thanks (and also looking forward to more detail in the future).
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Post by jonfrisby on Apr 10, 2015 6:49:30 GMT -7
Mark, with the tear you've been on lately, I hardly think your too old LOL
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 12, 2015 8:56:53 GMT -7
I think this is a really interesting topic and relates to one of my favorite articles on the RCTM site: rockclimberstrainingmanual.com/2014/07/29/reflections-on-the-time-value-of-climbing-ability/I've been trying to take the long-term approach ever since I started training in January 2014 rather than focusing on sending right now and I wonder if I'm doing the right thing pretty much all the time (does anyone NOT constantly question their approach and feel totally confident???) I've been climbing for 2.5 years now and live very close to the RRG. Strength and power are not my weaknesses. Endurance, technique, and lead head are my current weaknesses. Knowing this AND the fact that my local climbing area is known for steep enduro climbing, I still shorten the PE phase and skip the performance phase altogether in order to maximize the number of strength and power phases per calendar year for long-term improvement. I do this for a couple reasons: -I've read from multiple sources that finger strength tends to be the long-term bottleneck for improvement and takes years if not decades to develop. I figure I'll try to get a head start and sort out the other stuff later -During my first (and only) performance phase, I didn't really perform. When I started ARCing afterward, I started climbing harder and harder every weekend and it mostly had to do with the fact that I could rest much more effectively. At the Red, it seems like resting ability and MSS are more important than PE (at least in the 11's - I bet this changes at harder grades), so I have shortened my PE phase to 2 weeks and now consider my ARC phase and performance phase to be the same (ARC 3 days during the week and try to redpoint on the weekends). -I realize that if I wanted to improve my max redpoint immediately, I should focus on endurance, mileage, and projecting for awhile, but I'm still progressing with this current plan (11a to 12a max redpoint in 2014, though not on any very steep routes) and I feel like I'm maximizing my finger strength training while still getting in a decent amount of climbing mileage and enjoying the process -Most climbing areas aren't as steep as RRG, and while I may live nearby now, that may very well change in the near or distant future. I worry that I may be setting myself up for injury by trying to expedite finger-strength gain early in my climbing career. I ask myself when enough will be enough and when I should start focusing on what I perceive to be my actual weaknesses. I worry that I'm deviating from a proven plan used successfully by many based on my own very brief experience. Oh well, I guess time will tell. It's really cool that you're trying this. It remains to be seen if packing in a bunch of Strength/Power phases will produce better results than performing fewer standard cycles over the same period of time, but it's a worthwhile experiment and I'm really curious to see how it goes. I sometimes think if I could jump back 15 years and start over I would do something like this.
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Post by jessebruni on Apr 13, 2015 8:49:43 GMT -7
At the Red, it seems like resting ability and MSS are more important than PE (at least in the 11's - I bet this changes at harder grades) The question is, if this does change, at what grade/grade-range does it change? Last time I was there I sent 3 12d's and a 13a (Table of Colors) and MSS and resting ability was the key for all of them (except Stunning the Hog which was a pure power endurance challenge). Even looking at routes like Southern Smoke it seems like the ability to ARC at 5.12 is more important than the ability to send V12.
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