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Post by Jack Ziegler on Apr 30, 2014 20:55:20 GMT -7
How should one structure the strength phase to gain "forearm" strength for crack climbing? In particular, for 5.11 cracks in eldo and lumpy ridge and south platte.
Will hang board work outs lead to gains on finger cracks? What about the larger closer to hand size cracks? For example a 5.11 close to hand size roof crack? If hang boarding could help with crack climbing are there particular holds to focus on?
Also how do you train for strength and power endurance when you are on a multipitch route and you will have a quite heavy rack? I find often times on 5.11- trad climbs (usually a mixture of thin cracks, lay backing and strenuous stemming for example) I can follow pitches clean, however once I am leading I pump out due to the extra weight and taking time to place gear. Any ideas on how to improve that or just stick to the gym climbing plan during the work week and the plastic training will eventually help?
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Post by MarkAnderson on May 2, 2014 19:10:32 GMT -7
Jack,
Yes, hangboard training will help with your crack climbing strength. The best approach for finger crack training is to train the fingers in position that require flexion at both the DIP and PIP joints (both knuckles of the fingers). For example, training in an open grip (as for most pocket grips), and training in a half crimp. This will training the finger flexor muscles at joint angles that are reasonable specific to finger crack climbing. Theoretically, the ideal approach would be to train in fingerlock grip positions, but this places tremendous strain on the collateral ligaments of the fingers and is super not recommended! Since hangboarding is repetitive, and depends on pushing right up against your physical limits, it should always be done in ergonomic positions. [Finger locking is fun, but its NOT ergonomic. Many of the stars of the Golden Age of finger crack climbing (the 1980's) later faced serious, sometimes career-ending, finger issues as a result of their perpetual finger locking.]
For hand-jamming sizes, the finger work described already will help, but I would also train wide and medium pinch grips. These will help build the thumb flexor muscle that is the key protagonist during hand jams.
Regarding the rack, it can really help to carry less gear! Seriously, we found through our careers that as we became stronger climbers, we gained the confidence to carry less gear. However, you can also ARC with a weight belt (or even a rack) to get used to the load. Getting lots of mileage on trad routes will also help you quickly identify the proper size of gear and place it quickly.
Next, if you have issues pumping out while placing gear, I recommend using the Beginner Hangboard Routine, which utilizes 10 sec reps (vice 7 sec reps). This workout leans more to the endurance end of the Strength spectrum, so should help with your pump issue.
Finally, a general note: Others have theorized that the Rock Prodigy Program is primarily intended for sport climbers, and that is where you will see the best results. THIS IS HOGWASH! Mike and I both used this program to build our trad climbing abilities. Before we developed this program, we sucked at trad climbing. In particular I recall a harrowing epic on the 5.9 Steck-Salathe. Five years later we hiked Freerider (literally, Mike did not fall once on the entire 35-pitch ascent!). Granted, we primarily sport climb NOW because our family life dictates that, but we've done a ton of trad climbing, at a fairly high level, and its all thanks to the RP method.
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Post by Jack Ziegler on May 4, 2014 7:12:31 GMT -7
Thanks! That makes sense training the thumbs now that I think about it. Yeah I figure being stronger will mean I'll be climbing smaller features, which would require even smaller gear and some runouts, and I won't feel the need to sew up 11s and can run out the 10s more, so less gear.
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Post by tomfallen on May 4, 2014 17:14:09 GMT -7
I agree that finger cracks are hard on your fingers. But what about the argument (made convincingly in RCTM) that it's better to train things in a controlled manner than just a move you may or may not be able to do? What about training finger cracks in a hangboard style, but just progressing slowly so you aren't "pushing right up against your physical limits"?
What about training hand jams, thin hand, or flared hands in a hangboard style? These seem reasonably ergonomic to me, at least compared to half crimps or two-finger pockets.
Crack climbing seems more technique oriented than face climbing, which is probably why I suck at it. But wouldn't this indicate more crack climbing and less hangboarding or any grip type?
Of course, the evidence of strong sport climbers (e.g. the Huber brothers) or boulderers (Kevin Jorgenson leading .12c fingers his first week trad climbing) does seem to indicate that getting really strong with good footwork gives you a huge head start for climbing cracks.
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Post by Jack Ziegler on May 5, 2014 7:56:25 GMT -7
My experience is that for cracks, technique can only take you so far and eventually you need more strength and endurance. I made the most gains in crack climbing when I lived in Indian creek for 1.5 months. I think unless you are at the creek where it is easy to control intensity and crack size and access is convenient, it is hard to systematically train cracks. By just crack climbing often (now with a job), I can improve my technique but I'm not getting stronger because of the lack of volume and randomness of intensity on most granite trad climbs in CO. Those British off width climbers, wide boys, trained in their basement on custom built cracks, so theoretically that could be applied to a home built crack board? But then you're going to be jamming in wood, I imagine it would take a lot of experimentation to set it up right to make it so your skin doesn't give out and so that you can add and remove weight and have a variable crack size and have room below so you can hang just on your arms and not have the wall in the way.
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Post by MarkAnderson on May 5, 2014 11:28:58 GMT -7
Tom,
My philosophy has always been to just get as strong as I can, and then translate that strength to cracks when necessary. It may not be the optimal strategy if you are ONLY climbing cracks, but I had face-climbing goals as well, so I wanted to be strong on edges and pockets too (also, it's my opinion that as the "cracks" get harder, they often become much more like face climbs, and that type of strength becomes more limiting).
I think the "prepare for the stress in a controlled environment" approach is the way to go if you can do it in an ergonomic fashion. The Collateral ligaments are designed to resist torsional rotation between the phalanxes (sp?), and fingerlocking aims to do the opposite. You could easily control the resistance in a way that would virtually eliminate the risk of acute injury, but I would be very concerned about chronic or repetitive stress injury. It's often hard to see something like that coming, you might be doing damage and not realize it for weeks, months, or even years. The relatively tiny size of the collateral ligaments would make them much more susceptable to that type of injury, I would think. That said, I know there are people out there who train finger lock positions, so maybe they can offer more insight.
Training hand jams would certainly be plausible and far less risky, so long as the wrists are oriented correctly (straight down). I think it would be hell on your skin though, you might need to tape the backs of your hands.
Finally, I agree with the comment that crack climb is highly technique dependent and indicates favoring relatively more Skill Development and less physical training, as discussed in CH. 14.
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Post by tomfallen on May 6, 2014 7:35:06 GMT -7
Mark, Since I almost exclusively boulder I don't have much reason to train for cracks. And since you climb cracks something like 4 number grades harder than I do, your method clearly works. And it gives me hope that I can just keep training for bouldering, and if I decide to get back into trad climbing I'll be awesome without ever training for cracks.
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Post by climber511 on Aug 13, 2015 13:25:02 GMT -7
What do you all think of “crack machine” type setups? The climbing wall I run for the kids in our community does not have any cracks and I’m thinking about building something – both for fun and for education and skill training aimed at beginning climbers (probably won’t hurt me to train cracks a little either). I have plenty of wood working skills and materials and am thinking of a vertical setups with multiple sizes – a few angled ones – basically lots of variety etc. Should I include some outside foot chips also? Thoughts and ideas?
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Post by Charlie S on Aug 25, 2015 17:56:20 GMT -7
In my consumer experience, it is very hard to get the right depth, feel, and functionality of a crack in an artificial setting. Probably the best I've seen is Momentum in Sandy, UT. A sandstone or granite splitter feels TOTALLY different than a sandpaper covered wooden mockup.
However, for hand and fist sizes, it doesn't matter as much, if your technique is good. When you get into arm-bar and finger cracks, texture becomes the limiting factor (too much or too little). I'd take a look at some commercially offered cracks and get a pulse on what they're doing.
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Post by climber511 on Aug 25, 2015 19:40:13 GMT -7
In my consumer experience, it is very hard to get the right depth, feel, and functionality of a crack in an artificial setting. Probably the best I've seen is Momentum in Sandy, UT. A sandstone or granite splitter feels TOTALLY different than a sandpaper covered wooden mockup. However, for hand and fist sizes, it doesn't matter as much, if your technique is good. When you get into arm-bar and finger cracks, texture becomes the limiting factor (too much or too little). I'd take a look at some commercially offered cracks and get a pulse on what they're doing. Thanks Charlie - would you have any links to ones you have found to be worthwhile. We don't have a budget - everything will have to come out of my personal pocket (not complaining - just explaining). This is a non profit climbing wall my wife and I (and another couple) built and run for free just to help out the kids in our small community. So do it our-self is just the way it is and I kind of enjoy building stuff anyway. But any help from anyone with experience with a so called crack machine would be deeply appreciated.
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Post by Charlie S on Aug 26, 2015 18:52:43 GMT -7
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Post by HenryAB on Oct 21, 2016 12:56:42 GMT -7
There was an interesting blog post on the British crack climbers Tom Randall and Pete Whittaker. www.fiveten.com/explore/wideboyz-training-for-the-crucifix/They mention training for a hard "mono" crack in Utah. One of them said "it will take time to build the strength without getting injured." That suggests that they have some specific method to train for finger cracks. I'd be curious to learn what exactly they are doing.
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Post by Pete on Apr 17, 2017 18:11:44 GMT -7
Does sport climbing/training power endurance translate well to crack climbing? Maybe even bouldering? I am particularly inspired by cracks of green, purple, and grey camalot size. For some reason, I find myself thinking that spending a lot of time this summer clipping bolts and sprinkling in some bouldering could have its pay offs upon returning to Indian Creek this fall. I realize that for the most part splitter crack climbing does not involve powerful dynamic movement (although some do) but hanging on a bomber finger lock and having pull your body weight up for the next finger lock (with little to no feet) feels awfully powerful. Thoughts?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 18, 2017 14:28:10 GMT -7
In my experience it does, assuming you already understand the techniques (or are able to acquire them quickly). In the case of IC, I would think power endurance would be the key ingredient, so I would emphasize long pumpy endure sport routes to the extent possible.
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Post by HenriEE on Jun 1, 2017 2:41:47 GMT -7
When building something like the crack machine, how should one determine an optimal angle for it?
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