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Post by Chris W on Aug 7, 2014 17:26:03 GMT -7
Now I'm just confused. I was very proud of myself yesterday when I managed to hang on to my 15 degree wall for a full 20 minutes without falling off. Couldn't do it two weeks ago, but I have to try like [heck] to stay on the wall, even on large holds. Does this mean my intensity is WAY too high for ARCing? It seems like too long to be used for power endurance. I can hang on my vertical wall on tiny feet with small crimps forever, but my goal route for this year is Twinkie 12a down in the RRG. I'm trying to get some type of specificity in my ARC workouts. I've been doing my first ARC set on the vertical wall, and second set on the 15 degree wall.
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Post by Otis . on Aug 8, 2014 6:28:40 GMT -7
Mark, for us enduro climbers frequenting the Red and/or Maple, can you clarify the benefits of ARCing at higher grades? I know a lot of people who have benefitted greatly from ARCing up to about 5.13A, but not too many beyond that grade. Most of the guys I know who have pushed beyond low 5.13 climbing may do a little ARC work as a warm up, but otherwise focus on strength and power and then do some crazy 50-100 move power enduro workouts on 30-45 degree overhanging walls where they get seriously pumped.
Thank you to you and your brother Mike for your contributions to the climbing community. I know the topic of ARCing has been debated on various climbing boards more than the country's immigration policy, but I can't think of any other sport where the endurance work is focused on small muscles with little to no impact to the heart. Everyone tries to compare climbing to other sports, but it is really quite unique.
Thanks!
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 11, 2014 9:19:00 GMT -7
Now I'm just confused. I was very proud of myself yesterday when I managed to hang on to my 15 degree wall for a full 20 minutes without falling off. Couldn't do it two weeks ago, but I have to try like [heck] to stay on the wall, even on large holds. Does this mean my intensity is WAY too high for ARCing? It seems like too long to be used for power endurance. I can hang on my vertical wall on tiny feet with small crimps forever, but my goal route for this year is Twinkie 12a down in the RRG. I'm trying to get some type of specificity in my ARC workouts. I've been doing my first ARC set on the vertical wall, and second set on the 15 degree wall. That's awesome! I wouldn't stress too much over the semantics and physiology. If you're getting better at hanging out on overhanging terrain (which you clearly are), that will definitely help you on Twinkie (or just about any other 5.12/13/14 at the Red. Your approach is pretty similar to the way I ARC. It helps keep my skin from limiting my workout (work the tips in the first set, work the second pads in the second set).
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 11, 2014 9:47:47 GMT -7
Mark, for us enduro climbers frequenting the Red and/or Maple, can you clarify the benefits of ARCing at higher grades? I know a lot of people who have benefitted greatly from ARCing up to about 5.13A, but not too many beyond that grade. Most of the guys I know who have pushed beyond low 5.13 climbing may do a little ARC work as a warm up, but otherwise focus on strength and power and then do some crazy 50-100 move power enduro workouts on 30-45 degree overhanging walls where they get seriously pumped. Thank you to you and your brother Mike for your contributions to the climbing community. I know the topic of ARCing has been debated on various climbing boards more than the country's immigration policy, but I can't think of any other sport where the endurance work is focused on small muscles with little to no impact to the heart. Everyone tries to compare climbing to other sports, but it is really quite unique. Thanks! Ha ha! Ya, the amount of ARC debate is not proportional to its relative importance. I figure everyone got sick of reading after chapter 5 It's worth noting that Mike and I debate the value of ARCing quite a bit as well. Mike climbed almost exclusively at the Red for 6 years, so he found ARCing to be extremely valuable. ARC was a big part of his strategy for climbing Transworld Depravity in the Madness Cave. This is discussed briefly in the sidebar on page 98. It depends a lot on your goals, and for my goals power tends to be limiting much more often than endurance. Personally, the best example I have of using ARC on a 5.14 project involves my preparation for To Bolt Or Not To Be. The attachment shows my Fall 2008 Training schedule. Note this was drafted before the season, and it looks to me like I did not update it after the fact. You can see I planned for a 2.5 week Base Fitness Phase that included 9 ARC workouts. Unfortunately my record keeping in those days was not very good so I can't tell you how long/many the sets were, but I can tell you all workoyuts were done in my barn, so the terrain varied between a vertical wall, a 10 degree overhang and a 33 degree overhang. Considering the goal I'm sure it was almost all done on the vert &10 degre wall. This is a good example of tailoring the training to the goal, since you will notice I did hardly any power training and lots of outdoor climbing during my "power phase". The PE Phase shows some "6x8" workouts, but I'm sure I did not do that many sets. I recall doing interval work in the range of 3-5 sets of 60 or so hand movements. These included quite a few vertical boulder problems, so they were much more technical than your typical interval terrain and not insanely pumpy. This example notwithstanding, my PE training rarely exceeds 32-move sets, because beyond that it's nearly impossible to maintain the "power" element of "power endurance".
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Post by slimshaky on Aug 11, 2014 10:48:49 GMT -7
this looks like a pretty good demonstration of the 'spectrum' aspect of endurance training. even within the general term of 'power endurance' there is a pretty big range that could be subdivided, from the power end (where your hands immediately open after say a dozen moves but you don't necessarily feel a 'pump' so much) to the endurance end (where your hands slowly become crippled and you have a pump that makes you feel like you are going to blow chunks).
man, i just can't imagine doing all of those moves on TBONTB without slowly unraveling and screwing things up. that takes some mental endurance also!
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Post by coachseiji on Aug 11, 2014 11:42:46 GMT -7
Sweet Mark, yeah the term "Maximum Steady State" taken from other sports is as you said, a much higher, detrimental IMO intensity for this duration of effort. Just using the term "maximum" and then like you said, employing the 10-20% intensity causes the disconnect, at least for me. Good job on all this, writing a book and all the follow up is a gargantuan task I'm sure, and I'm so stoked that this level and method of training has been put down on paper for this sport. Fully stoked.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 11, 2014 13:53:02 GMT -7
man, i just can't imagine doing all of those moves on TBONTB without slowly unraveling and screwing things up. that takes some mental endurance also! I got lucky, because I sent it before I was expecting to. I didn't step off the ground with the thought that I had to keep it together for 100+ moves. My goal for the burn was to 1-hang it, and to clip the 7th bolt (which was a really difficult clip) on lead. I distinctly recall reaching the 8th bolt and thinking "wow, this is a really good burn" (as opposed to thinking I was going to send). The first shake is at the 9th bolt, and almost all of the hard climbing is below that. While shaking out there my mindset started to evolve from "hooray, my first 1-hang" into "you might as well just send it now". There's a really hard move around the 12th bolt, and I was collected through that move, but after that I started shaking like crazy. Fortunately the last bit is only 5.11 or so, but it was probably the sketchiest section on that day.
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Post by Chris W on Aug 11, 2014 20:37:06 GMT -7
Mark, thank you for the feedback and the encouragement
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Post by Ama on Aug 12, 2014 22:45:17 GMT -7
I am just starting and am really glad I stumbled upon this forum.
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Post by slimshaky on Aug 13, 2014 10:24:01 GMT -7
man, i just can't imagine doing all of those moves on TBONTB without slowly unraveling and screwing things up. that takes some mental endurance also! I got lucky, because I sent it before I was expecting to. I didn't step off the ground with the thought that I had to keep it together for 100+ moves. My goal for the burn was to 1-hang it, and to clip the 7th bolt (which was a really difficult clip) on lead. I distinctly recall reaching the 8th bolt and thinking "wow, this is a really good burn" (as opposed to thinking I was going to send). The first shake is at the 9th bolt, and almost all of the hard climbing is below that. While shaking out there my mindset started to evolve from "hooray, my first 1-hang" into "you might as well just send it now". There's a really hard move around the 12th bolt, and I was collected through that move, but after that I started shaking like crazy. Fortunately the last bit is only 5.11 or so, but it was probably the sketchiest section on that day. i had to chalk up twice just reading that!
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Post by Molly on Jan 28, 2015 12:01:48 GMT -7
Great points slim. From a physiological perspective, the point of ARCing is to train the aerobic energy pathway. It's better to think of this in terms of Time Under Tension, so let's say for sake of argument that 500 feet equates to 30 minutes. I think you could get some aerobic training benefit from a 12 minute (200') set, but I think a longer set would be much better. Even a well rehearsed redpoint of an 80' pitch will take several minutes. My send of To Bolt took literally 20 minutes. In sports like running, cycling or swimming athletes will do aerobic work in excess of hour long sets to train for events that last several minutes (like a mile run). So I think there is plenty of basis for 30 minute or longer ARC sets. That said, if you prefer shorter sets or you think shorter sets are more applicable to your goals, I think you would be just fine (and get most of the same benefits) from performing more, shorter sets, so long as the total TUT or volume is more or less equivalent. Hi Mark, I have a related question. I practice technique during ARCing regularly during my workouts, but often want to gain the benefits of Time Under Tension when I don't have time to get to the gym. I've been wondering if using an " arm bike" would provide a similar enough motion to gain the physical benefits of ARCing and also provide a way to warm up before hangboard workouts that I do at home?
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Post by brendann on Jan 29, 2015 9:08:17 GMT -7
I don't think an arm bike would give you the tension-release-tension cycle to warm up your fingers for hangboarding, but it should warm up your shoulders pretty well. I don't think it would give the same benefits of ARCing for the same reason. Climbing is climbing, arm biking is arm biking.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 29, 2015 14:23:03 GMT -7
I agree with Brendan. The arm bike is not a finger exerciser. You would be better off doing some isometric contractions on a Grip Master or tennis ball or something like that.
The best way to go if you can't get to a gym or crag, physiologically speaking, is to ARC or warmup on your hangboard.
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Post by Molly on Feb 6, 2015 9:14:03 GMT -7
Point taken, thanks for the responses!
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Post by slabbybadger on Jan 15, 2019 20:42:30 GMT -7
I found this discussion very interesting, because I'd independently come to some of the same conclusions as CoachSeiji. Namely, that for maximum aerobic training of the forearms, the latest wisdom from other endurance sports would imply that you really shouldn't have much of a pump (if any) while ARCing. For cycling or running, my understanding is that you should be training at or slightly below your maximum aerobic heart rate. At this heart rate, you're relying on your aerobic energy pathway for such a high percentage of your energy that you should be able to go indefinitely. You're not dipping into your glycogen reserves, so you'll never crash (or "bonk"). This sounds like the definition of MSS from the RCTM. As you spend more time training at this target heart rate, your pace for this given effort will increase. In other words, your base output before you need to go for the more limited energy pathways is increasing. During an endurance race/performance such as a marathon, the vast majority of your energy is STILL coming via the aerobic pathway, but you're pushing your heart rate slightly above MSS to maximize your output by dipping into your glycogen reserves (and ideally depleting them just as you cross the finish line). With all of that said, it's also extremely clear that "ARC training" as described in the RCTM (notable pump, shaking out, pushing hard, breaking a sweat but not pushing to your limits) is working well for people. It's just very curious (to at least two of us) that this description seems contradictory to the prevailing wisdom in other sports. It may be that in the future we find a more efficient way to aerobically train forearms, or (perhaps) that other sports find a more efficient way to aerobically train the rest of the body. Or maybe forearms are so different that we've already solved it, and other sports be damned
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