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Post by acmesalute76 on Apr 8, 2019 20:48:43 GMT -7
And yet, I just climbed a letter grade harder than last season, ticking a route that felt out of reach in the fall, a long, sustained steep face climb. I am able to climb outside a lot, so I’ve been projecting two days a week and on the third day doing PE laps outside, but I haven’t used a stopwatch at all, I’ve just sort of rested until I’m not out of breath and done laps til I couldn’t. But I really don’t like climbing inside, and last season (my first of real training) I had a hard time dialing in a perfect LBC, so I figured what the hell, I’m probably gaining PE just from projecting anyway, and I’ll get to climb outside more.
I know there was a bit in the book about one of the Andersons doing this at Smith rock (PE training on route) but I was just curious if anyone else has had success with this, upsides/downsides etc.
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Post by jetjackson on Apr 9, 2019 17:10:13 GMT -7
Downsides:
- Difficulty in finding a route outdoors that has a good variety of movement, with consecutive, sustained movement, that is also at the right point relevant to your physical capacity, that is not also a Super Classic that get's jammed every day.
- Location - how far do you have to go to get there?
- Need a willing partner.
Upsides:
- Real rock, more relevant.
- Climbing on lead = improved head game
- You're outside climbing, potentially dialling in a project.
As per other posts here, dialling in a good LBC is really tough. Until I had my own woody, I would rely on trying to work something out at the gym, which was near impossible. I find having the ability to set at home myself is great. It also helps you to dial in the right level of difficulty. PE builds so fast, that I've found what seems impossible on my circuit in the first session, by the third session, I'm nailing. eg. this season I had a 37 move circuit, and my first PE session, a smaller session, I did 33, 32, 24, not even able to make the entire circuit, and then in the fourth session I did 37,37,37,33,33,32. I think the gain in PE as you learn the circuit and improve your PE would probably be better with an LBC. If I recall someone referred to it as the gold standard for building PE. I'm not sure if you will get the same physical benefit from doing PE outdoors, simply because of the nature of climbing upwards and moving through hard territory.
i.e. if you can reach the top on your first lap for PE - it may not be hard enough, then if you choose something harder, you would need to really dial in the beta on each section of the route in order to move to physical benefits. On the home woody, my warm up includes doing each of the 4 boulder problems in my circuit while I am warming up, so I've got the beta really dialled for the actual circuit - that means that my improvement on the PE circuit is coming more from physical improvement, rather than just learned improvement of the moves - which is what we are really going for here.
I guess that's the bottom line of a downside I would see here on the outdoor PE, would be that it would be harder to swing the needle in the direction of physical benefit, and you're improving because you're getting better at the moves, rather than physically. Don't get me wrong, there would still be physical benefit, but it would be reduced because you don't have the moves as dialled in. On the indoor LBC, if it's getting too easy, all I have to do is remove a hold or two and replace it with a smaller hold - you can't really do that outdoors unless you maybe start eliminating holds.
Again, the benefits of training outdoors for most climbers probably outweighs the negatives. I expect if you're climbing 5.14, you probably need a super dialled LBC at home, so you're really zoning in on the pure physicality of PE training, and the only reason you're falling off your LBC is because of pump, not because you could improve the beta.
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Post by acmesalute76 on Apr 11, 2019 16:52:23 GMT -7
That’s a great way of looking at it. I would love someday to have my own home gym where I can train without distractions. The ability to tweak an LBC, and keep it season to season, seems really ideal. But I don’t have that option.
When you compare outdoor PE training to trying to do LBCs in a gym, there are a lot of the same downsides as far as finding the proper difficulty.
The point I’m really getting at is that I felt like I really slacked off this season as far as doing disciplined PE workouts, and it didn’t seem to affect my performance at all. Am I just not climbing hard enough for it to matter? I felt like my PE came up about the same as last season when I actually trained for it. Maybe that just means I did a bad job training it last season?
If we’re solely training for physical changes, why not train on a hangboard or campus rungs instead of bouldering?
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Post by jetjackson on Apr 11, 2019 17:17:17 GMT -7
It could just be that PE wasn't the limiting factor on the climbs you did this season - eg. they could have had good resting points etc. or that your power and strength has been built up to the point where you're strong enough to avoid really getting deep into PE territory.
The other thing you can do is just skip LBC altogether and just do 4x4. Sometimes I do 4x4 on the moonboard. If you have access to a moonboard and can hook up the moonboard to your phone app you can create a 4 problem list. That way, you do the problem, drop to the ground, quickly grab your phone, literally just swipe right on the app, which brings up the next problem on the moonboard in a matter of seconds so you can jump straight onto it. So I have a list that goes V4,V5,V3,V4 for example, and the same ones, and I can track across seasons how well I am progressing because the problems stay the same.
Still, I don't find that as good for building PE as an LBC.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 12, 2019 8:16:19 GMT -7
(Aside: dude, you should be able to remember 4 moonboard problems without looking at your phone! If you're using them in a 4x4 you should have already climbed them and know the moves--just sayin')
Jackson makes a great point that it really depends on the goal route. Many routes just don't demand a lot of high end PE. It sounds like your route was "sustained", so maybe that doesn't apply here.
Another possible explanation is that it takes much more physical effort/dedication to attain a new level of fitness than it does to return to a previously-attained level of fitness. So its quite possible you did all the hard work & sacrifice last season to reach a new level of PE fitness, and then this season you could regain that level (or get close-enough to send your goal route) despite using a less efficient PE training approach. I experienced this a lot in my earlier years of training--one season I would go "by the book," reach a new personal best, then the next season I would "just climb" and return to that same level (but I found it pretty hard to surpass my previous best with the "just climb" approach once I started seeing the benefits of training).
You may also be right that its not yet "hard enough to matter." PE is often confused with just-plain-E(ndurance). Proper PE is terrain that is too-hard/sustained-to-chalk (and you may need to skip a clip or two). If you're able to shake or chalk every few moves, its not really PE. You may still benefit from PE training, since that training also improves E, but your PE ability is much less likely to be the limiting factor affecting your success.
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Post by Chris W on Apr 12, 2019 9:56:26 GMT -7
Proper PE is terrain that is too-hard/sustained-to-chalk (and you may need to skip a clip or two). I really like this description. I stumbled onto this when I was training (successfully) to send my first 13. It took two seasons, and for the second (successful) season I purposefully set my LBC so that it was too hard to stop to chalk up or "rest". If I stop moving, I come off the wall. |
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Post by jetjackson on Apr 12, 2019 23:49:37 GMT -7
(Aside: dude, you should be able to remember 4 moonboard problems without looking at your phone! If you're using them in a 4x4 you should have already climbed them and know the moves--just sayin') I feel like I'm great at remembering beta until I build up a blinding pump, then my brain seems to work less. Perhaps that's something I need to train. |
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Post by acmesalute76 on Apr 13, 2019 7:31:28 GMT -7
Ok, based on that description, I’m definitely just not getting into true PE territory yet. Generally there are a few spots where I can shake or clip. Generally these spots aren’t great and I can’t stay there for more than a couple seconds, but it’s not so hard that I can’t stop at all for more than a few moves. I’m thinking about what a route like that would be and it seems hard!
I generally hate to talk about grades, but for reference my hardest projects have been in the 11d range so maybe as I progress I’ll start to get into more disgusting PE sections, and dialing in that training will become more critical.
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