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Post by Chris W on Feb 18, 2019 18:19:47 GMT -7
Has anyone looked into the role of the flexor digitorum profundus vs the flexor digitorum superfiRCTMkicksAss?
During this base phase I had a bit of an epiphany pulling on the e-grips pure line finger buckets. They felt oddly challenging on my 35 degree wall and seemed to hit the muscles in my forearms in a way that some of my "smaller" holds didn't. I'm not certain yet if it's a joint angle thing or a grip type (thumb catch vs no) thing or a hold radius thing.
Anyway, it made me think back to my upper limb anatomy days. I pulled out my Netter Atlas and, just as I thought, the muscles have different insertions. The flexor digitorum profundus inserts into the base of the distal phalynx of the finger. The superfiRCTMkicksAss inserts at the base of the middle phalanx.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 19, 2019 16:17:15 GMT -7
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Post by Chris W on Feb 20, 2019 5:22:24 GMT -7
OK, I didn't realize it had been discussed. I was kind of trying to stimulate some training-specific discussion on the forum.
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Post by Chris W on Feb 20, 2019 8:41:29 GMT -7
So, for what its worth, my thoughts are:
-The best grip to engage both sets of muscles is the crimp
-Improving small hold performance is not so much a function of training on small holds; rather it has more to do with training a specific joint angle. Some small holds can be pulled upon with an open grip, however some necessitate a crimp grip.
-"Deep" holds or jugs are easier not because they use both sets of muscles, but because they use the skeleton to bear a large amount of weight
-The common "wisdom" that you shouldn't train the crimp grip because you could injure your fingers is doing climbers a disservice. Rather, the key to preventing injury with this grip is to train smart.
-Training the full crimp grip can be difficult on the hangboard, because if you're stronger in an open position, you have a natural tendency to allow your crimp to devolve into an open hand when the weights get heavier.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 20, 2019 17:10:00 GMT -7
-Training the full crimp grip can be difficult on the hangboard, because if you're stronger in an open position, you have a natural tendency to allow your crimp to devolve into an open hand when the weights get heavier. I had that problem a lot in the early days of hangboard crimp training. I would start a phase with really good form, but it would gradually devolve as the weights went up, so by the end I was hardly training the crimp. This is where I think the thumb support (or some other form of thumb wrap) is really key. It really encourages you to maintain a crimp position. You can sag a little bit, but eventually, as your hand opens, the thumb can't contribute enough to keep you on the hold.
Alternatively, if you have a bit of discipline, you can place the crook of the thumb DIP joint onto the point of the thumb support and use that as a reference point for how much you're sagging. That's what I do.
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Post by Chris W on Feb 20, 2019 18:12:07 GMT -7
Alternatively, if you have a bit of discipline, you can place the crook of the thumb DIP joint onto the point of the thumb support and use that as a reference point for how much you're sagging. That's what I do.
I'll have to try that. It makes me wonder, though, if I should try to include another grip in my hangboard sessions that involves those joint angles. Certainly, the IM, MR and mono are all open. The pinch doesn't count. Perhaps I should change my open hand VDER joint angles from open to more closed. |
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Post by Chris W on Feb 27, 2019 10:11:34 GMT -7
Mark, did you back off on your weights when you re-oriented your crimp grip?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 27, 2019 13:00:07 GMT -7
No, but I didn’t progress as quickly as I did when I allowed myself to cheat.
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Post by jetjackson on Feb 27, 2019 23:15:29 GMT -7
I really struggle to even stay on the Forge or RPTC thin crimps with an open handed grip. I have to crimp. I think my open hand is relatively strong too. I'm on Forge VDER with index at the first bump - that's 14mm, and I'm open handing repeaters +17.5kg or 38 lbs, and I'm just hitting +11 pounds on the closed crimp. If my crimp starts to open up even slightly, I'm coming off that thing.
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Post by Chris W on Feb 28, 2019 5:20:05 GMT -7
If my crimp starts to open up even slightly, I'm coming off that thing. I certainly don't have that problem on the hangboard, but that's basically the reason I've decided to focus on that joint angle; there seem to be some holds I can't grip with anything but a crimp, and those are the ones that spit me off the rock. Somehow, this seems to be irrespective of hold size. |
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Post by Chris W on Mar 2, 2019 18:39:55 GMT -7
So this whole thing has me questioning the utility of continuing to train the open-hand VDER. Since downsizing the grip (first index bump on the Forge), my middle and ring fingers are bent at the PIP joint while the index and pinkie fingers are bent at the DIP joint. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm training the worst of both worlds with those angles.
-I'm already training the MR, IM and mono. That's three different "open hand" grips, though definitely hitting the middle finger the most. Does it even make sense to have another open hand grip (VDER)?
-I've kept the VDER open hand thus far because I use that grip the most, but it's also the strongest, so perhaps I don't even need to train it on the hangboard. After all, I don't train on the jug...
-I could replace the VDER with the Forge "slopey crimper". I could grip this hold with flat (or slightly extended) DIP joints and flexed PIP joints. This would give me a grip that has slightly more open joint angles than the full closed crimp, but still more closed angles than the IM, MR and mono.
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Post by Chris W on Mar 4, 2019 11:47:22 GMT -7
Thread bump, any thoughts?
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Post by mikekane on Mar 5, 2019 11:52:00 GMT -7
I wouldn't take my opinion as gospel, but since you offered me some good advice (even if my current hangboard phase is shaping up to be an unmitigated disaster)... if you want to train slopey crimp, I might consider dropping the mono over dropping open-half. I *think* you climb aroundish the same level as me (I've redpointed 12d/13a although I haven't climbed outside in a year so who knows how bad I am currently), and I use open half all the time and have only ever used a strenuous mono once.
That said, if your local area has a ton of pockets or you are just crushing open half mercilessly this is probably not a good idea. For reference, my 5-rep repeater max for that grip is +12.5 lbs (RPTC SVDE with the outermost position bump between my middle and ring fingers) so I'm not exactly crushing that grip. My local climbing is mostly crimps with the occasional sloper and all the pockets were drilled
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Post by Chris W on Mar 7, 2019 3:28:22 GMT -7
Mike, I'll probably keep the mono. It's not the most common grip I use, but now that I'm breaking into the 5.13 realm, it is starting to show up. If it's on a route, I'm going to use it, so I'd rather get my fingers ready now than find I need it and am weak as a kitten on it, or worse, blow it out.
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Post by mikekane on Mar 7, 2019 9:38:35 GMT -7
Makes sense. Figuring out what grips to train is tricky business. The local stuff is all banded gneiss so pockets aren't as much of a priority for me (although I still train 2 pocket grips)
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