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Post by RobF on Dec 19, 2018 3:26:07 GMT -7
Peaked at 24, redpointed Evolution 8c+ at the Tor last month...
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Post by Chris W on Dec 19, 2018 3:52:18 GMT -7
I don't see a need for an apology; I like seeing things from different perspectives.
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Post by Chris W on Dec 21, 2018 7:59:33 GMT -7
Don't know if you've hit it yet, but in the next chapter, "Work in Progress", he seems to get a little more deliberate in his training. He is basically doing LBC's and Limit Bouldering sessions. Also, it seems like he gets his idea for the Moon board from the wall in "The School" and the problems listed in the guide book there.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 21, 2018 10:17:51 GMT -7
When you say LBCs, do you mean when he does a set of several problems, then rests 15-30 minutes, then repeats? I found that interesting. If you look at his diary entries it would seem like he always had plenty of power but struggled with PE. I wonder if this duty cycle was typical of his “PE” training, and if so, did that contribute to his struggles with PE on the rock?
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Post by Chris W on Dec 21, 2018 10:47:11 GMT -7
Yes. But I was under the impression he was linking the problems without coming off the wall. I'll have to go back to clarify.
Are you thinking his rest intervals were too long?
OK, yeah, looks like he was linking the problems with a work interval of over 2 minutes but 15 minutes rest. I guess that is pretty long, considering we start with a duty cycle of 1:2
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 25, 2018 15:11:48 GMT -7
Finished last night. The parting thought was interesting, and perhaps I over estimated Ben’s influence on the book.
It ends with Ben getting serious about climbing again after a few years off. Asked if there’s anything in particular he’d like to accomplish, Ben replies he’d still like to climb 9a some day (which he eventually did of course). The author responds that it’s likely he already did with Hubble. I don’t recall the exact words, but Ben seemed rather skeptical to me, or certainly at the very least unsatisfied with retroactively taking credit for it.*
Which begs the question, why is the author so determined to paint him as jealous of Moffat and Gullich? Or are we to believe the author is so naive that he figured his audience, composed entirely of player-hatin climbers, would take each word at face value? I lean towards the guys clueless about his audience (see comments on chapter 1). I’d guess he figured we’d just lap it all up, never considering we might have affection for the climbers he was putting down in order to build Ben up.
My final verdict is that Bens not a bad guy but the author is tragically incompetent. Perhaps Ben didn’t notice, or just doesn’t care enough about his legacy to demand a rewrite. I assume the latter— he strikes me more as a guy who just wants to go climbing and let the pundits fret over his legend.
*this is very admirable and shows quite a bit of awareness and a way above average level of personal integrity. He knows hard redpointing is more mental than physical, and a large part of the mental challenge is tied up in the climbers perception of the routes difficulty. Getting the upgrade after the fact certainly reduces the challenge by some small degree. Plus he probably wants a route with a solid grade he doesn’t have to argue about!
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Post by jetjackson on Dec 25, 2018 16:28:06 GMT -7
I read the Hubble chapter last night - I've been dragging my heels on this book as had been reading everything else possible to prep for the podcast interview. I agree with most of the sentiment here - even if I might have been biased by reading it, I still had the impression that it was a waste of ink. I understand the need to put things in historical context, but this did go beyond that, particularly in the back half of the chapter. I got the same impression where he spoke about Ben's participation in competitions, and trying to suggest Ben's climbing comp ability was significant by comparing his performance to Francois Legrands - Ben lost to Francois Legrand, but Francois 'struggled to reach Ben's highpoint', but still did, and won, and then went on to be a prolific figure in comp climbing of the time, ergo. That just seems a very tenuous comparison to me.
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Post by Chris W on Dec 26, 2018 5:12:55 GMT -7
My final verdict is that Ben's not a bad guy but the author is tragically incompetent. Agree. My main thoughts on the book: 1) I didn't really learn ABOUT Ben, just about the things he DID (and did not do). Considering I read the book to learn ABOUT Ben, I'm a bit disappointed. 2) I don't feel like Moon really reached his full potential.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 26, 2018 17:56:31 GMT -7
Agree. My main thoughts on the book: 1) I didn't really learn ABOUT Ben, just about the things he DID (and did not do). Considering I read the book to learn ABOUT Ben, I'm a bit disappointed. That's a good way of putting. More like an obnoxiously tedious record of his achievements than a look into his personality or psyche. 2) I don't feel like Moon really reached his full potential. That's an interesting opinion. Why do you say that? Because he didn't train/rehab optimally, or do you feel he wasn't as driven or focused as he could've been? Something else?
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Post by Chris W on Dec 26, 2018 21:21:14 GMT -7
So it seems like he sent Hubble at a young age (24?) and kind of fizzled. He did some bouldering and sent some hard boulders, but not much else. Then, at the age of [49 or 50?] he comes back and sends Rainshadow 9a. That seems like a step up from Hubble, but Ben seemed capable of much harder routes in those years between Hubble and Rainshadow.
I can't tell from the book whether or not he lacked drive or focus, but it seems to me the thing holding him back was he just didn't know HOW to get better. He seems to have climbed up to his send of Hubble with nothing but raw, natural ability. I think if he knew HOW to rehab and train, he would have sent Action Direct, 15a, or harder.
I think you can be a really good climber without knowing how to train or improve. I think Ondra sent Dura Dura before Sharma because, besides being naturally gifted, he had someone to help him train and improve. Sharma seemed to "just climb" and live on natural ability.
Ben tried to train, basically doing the same things that Jerry was doing (bouldering circuits, boulder problems in the cellar, campus board), but whatever he did didn't seem to help him improve on routes. Perhaps he was just training his strengths (power) but not even training that as well as he could.
I don't believe this speaks poorly of Ben though. Some people are just better at figuring out training, or other things in life, than others. It seems like Ben worked as hard as he could with what he knew, but couldn't find a way to improve with routes, so he decided to try something new, which was bouldering. He seemed to experience more success there.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 27, 2018 15:37:44 GMT -7
So it seems like he sent Hubble at a young age (24?) and kind of fizzled. He did some bouldering and sent some hard boulders, but not much else. Then, at the age of [49 or 50?] he comes back and sends Rainshadow 9a. That seems like a step up from Hubble, but Ben seemed capable of much harder routes in those years between Hubble and Rainshadow. I can't tell from the book whether or not he lacked drive or focus, but it seems to me the thing holding him back was he just didn't know HOW to get better. He seems to have climbed up to his send of Hubble with nothing but raw, natural ability. I think if he knew HOW to rehab and train, he would have sent Action Direct, 15a, or harder. I see what you're saying--if you plotted his ability vs age, it would seem he was on a steep upslope until 24, then you would assume he was on the downslope by age 49. So there should be a peak in the middle there somewhere that exceeds both his climbing at 24 and 49. Instead there's kinda just a big black hole (of bouldering, haha). But its not like he wasn't climbing or trying to send hard things. At least up to his 30's he was still "in the game," he just never put anything completely together that exceeded Hubble. I guess my take is that he was probably very near his ultimate potential at 24, he just got there a lot faster than most people. You could argue that in a lot of ways, that is what "talent" is--the ability to reach your ultimate potential really quickly or easily. I'm not convinced that had he started using a really great training program at 24 he would have gotten a lot better. I think he was pretty much maxed out, at least from a power perspective. If you look at his 20+ year bouldering career, he never did much better than Hubble (reportedly V13--I think his best boulder send was V14). Obviously he had more potential in endurance or PE, and improving that allowed him to do Rainshadow. Anyway, this sorta thing makes me wonder what it would be like to be a female Olympic gymnast (or similar)and win a gold medal at age 17. What do you do with the rest of your life after that? At least in climbing, even after you've peaked you can still participate and set personal goals to strive for. I think you can be a really good climber without knowing how to train or improve. Totally agree. I would actually argue the vast majority of "really good climbers" don't have a clue how to train or improve, and many are slightly delusional about what makes them good (specifically, they think its hard work or clever training, when its really 98% genetics--see TC). Ben tried to train, ...but whatever he did didn't seem to help him improve on routes. Perhaps he was just training his strengths (power) but not even training that as well as he could. It seems to me that this is correct--he really just trained what he enjoyed--power. Most people do that I suppose, but its one of the classic training blunders. I suppose he could have accomplished more had he trained for and sought out more enduro routes, but those routes weren't as common then as they are now, especially in the UK (I imagine). Still, look at a guy like Tribout he climbed the same grade with only a tiny fraction of Ben's power. He did it by seeking out techy enduro lines like Just Do It. I don't believe this speaks poorly of Ben though. ... It seems like Ben worked as hard as he could with what he knew, but couldn't find a way to improve with routes, so he decided to try something new, which was bouldering. I don't either, but I also don't feel sorry for him. He was easily one of the 5 or so most accomplished climbers of his era. People still know his name and buy his stuff (whether they know why its called a "Moon Board" or not). He had an incredible career than any of us would love to have. He just needs to find someone capable of telling his story.
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Post by Chris W on Dec 27, 2018 21:32:50 GMT -7
Crumbs. Ever spend 30 minutes thinking out a response and writing a post and then accidentally delete the whole thing? Anyway, I really don't want to believe that Ben hit his limit, primarily for the selfish, childish and arrogant reason that I don't want to believe that I've hit my limit either. I want to believe that Ben could have done better, because I want to believe that my plateaus are temporary, I'm not getting too old, and have not hit my max finger strength and power. Really wish I hadn't deleted my whole post. I'm wondering how close Ben's limit, 9a is to the true human limit. There has to be one, right? Holds can only get so small. I know we have 9c now, but isn't it 9c because of stacked difficulty and length, not because of moves that are only doable by one human being in the world?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 28, 2018 12:58:28 GMT -7
Well, you’re not Ben, so whether or not he reached his potential has nothing to do with you. We already know that lots of people continue to improve after age 40 and beyond.
We won’t have a realistic idea of the human limit until a climber comes along with all the circumstantial advantages (like genetics, finances, access, exposure, training...) combined with maximum application of those advantages towards pushing climbing limits. It would seem Ondra has most of those things. He started at an early age, did some training at some point, and clearly applies himself. But he certainly could’ve started earlier, he probably could train more/better, and it’s unclear if he’s optimal suited for climbing genetically.
Based on basic statistical distribution of race, it seems unlikely the ideal human climbing specimen is white.
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Post by Chris W on Dec 28, 2018 16:51:56 GMT -7
Based on basic statistical distribution of race, it seems unlikely the ideal human climbing specimen is white. What do you mean? Are you referring to the different characteristics of muscle mass, function and distribution between "black" and "white" individuals?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 28, 2018 17:39:43 GMT -7
No, I'm referring to the "fact*" that ~30% of the world's population is white. Without considering any real or imagined genetic differences, it would seem there is roughly a 30% chance that the human with the best climbing potential, genetically speaking, is white.
(*I couldn't find a super reliable source for this number, but ~30% is probably in the ballpark)
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