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Post by RobF on Nov 4, 2018 13:10:16 GMT -7
Some deep thoughts there. Been watching Jordan Peterson a bit recently on utube. He talks a lot about figuring yourself out and working towards a life plan because reaching your goals through chance alone is practically zero. He has a book 12 rules for life that I might read at some point (sorry hijacking thread here so will stop).
Anyways no one in my chess club has ever called me a geek! We are however top of the league at the moment so might be some geek in there somewhere...
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Post by Chris W on Nov 4, 2018 20:37:49 GMT -7
Interesting thoughts. Funny, Jet, that you talk about dreams. I have a recurring nightmare (definitely a nightmare) that I'm back in school (med school or college, not high school because I home-schooled myself). The typical plot involves someone discovering that I didn't have enough credits to earn my degree, so I have to go back and repeat a year (or two). This is disastrous, because it takes away the only means I have of providing for my family, which is my job. Plus, I feel a bit indignant that I have to repeat my basic biology courses, considering my current level of abilities. I usually wake up in a cold sweat.
Regarding the "cool" climbing culture or the kid-less culture, I've experienced that locally. I've had a very hard time finding climbing partners or finding anyone to introduce me to some of the local "semi-secret" areas. Regarding kids, I ran into a local strong-man boulderer (Adam) last week. He has always been humble, welcoming and kind and is very involved in local advocacy work for our major bouldering areas. Our paths haven't crossed much, since I have been focused primarily on roped climbing. Anyway, I randomly ran into Adam and spotted him for his ascent of Destroyer V8. He had his wife and two tiny daughters (2 and 6 weeks) out with him. I hadn't seen him since he had kids. He mentioned how he also struggled to find climbing partners since having kids. He seemed a bit disappointed in his friends seeming inability to relate to his new life and is gravitating more towards climbing partners with families. Adam, BTW, is continuing to crush harder than ever.
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Post by jetjackson on Nov 11, 2018 3:33:23 GMT -7
I've just finished off the book. Warning spoilers...
The remainder of the book went back and forth between the dawn wall and the fitz traverse, and some other moments.
I find the contrast between TCs version of the story, and the movie. Different things are emphasized and de-emphasized, such as his returning from Wino tower to support Kevin in finishing - in the movie I interpreted it as a decision, or realisation that he comes to at Wino tower, where in the book it seemed that he had rationalised it all prior to going after the pitches in the lead up to Wino tower, and had already decided that he would continue to support Kevin.
I probably enjoyed the first two parts of the book more, simply because they were more in depth than what you got in the movie.
Glad to know that he does 7 seconds on, 3 seconds off repeaters. He did talk about Alex Megos I recall, and his really analytical and systematic approach to training, and that it influenced him.
... having said that, TC does feature in photos throughout the RPTM - Mark, did you guys influence his training at all? You mention only meeting him superficially.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Nov 11, 2018 15:21:43 GMT -7
I'm maybe halfway through Part 3, so I can't comment on most of what you said, but I agree so far I, much preferred Parts 1 & 2. Part 3 is just less dynamic, lots of excruciating details about the Dawn Wall (its like my blog on steroids, lol). I'm still getting a lot of insight out of it, just not as dramatic as the other parts.
Anyway, regarding his training and did RCTM influence it? Not directly. However, I know Jonathan is really close to Tommy and has tried for years to convince Tommy to use our methods. About a year ago it got so far that Jonathan emailed us, with Tommy CC'd, saying that Tommy wanted us to coach him. It was kinda funny to me because Jonathan was literally putting words in TCs mouth. My attitude towards such things is that he couldn't have wanted it very bad if he couldn't write his own email, and from experience it doesn't work with people who don't "want it bad," so I didn't pay any attention to it. Mike offered to coach him, but it never materialized. Having read the book, maybe it was just Tommy being self-conscious or shy.
More recently, our publisher told me over the summer that his brother went to a TC slideshow and asked him what he does for training. Tommy reportedly said he follows the RCTM, and that's it. Since then our publisher has reached out to Tommy to try to get him to officially endorse the book, but no response (a lack of response is pretty normal for Tommy in my experience...we tried for months to get his attention for the book photoshoot, and we only succeeded by using Jonathan as our emissary).
As far as the photoshoot itself, he was really professional and agreed to do whatever we asked. This sort of thing can be really tedious and he never complained about doing the same shot 6 different ways or anything. There wasn't much small talk though, it was pretty much all business.
What I found interesting was how little he seemed to know about training. Maybe some of that was humility, relative to someone (me) claiming to be an "expert," haha. I figured going into it that it would be a great opportunity for me to learn something from him, but it didn't work out that way. He asked lots of questions--I would ask him to do a particular exercise for the camera, and he would ask what the exercise is for or what it has to do with climbing. He seemed really intrigued by the Campus Board, like he had never used one before. Reading the book, apparently that is not the case, but in my estimation he hadn't touched one in a decade or more. He kept saying things like, "this is really good, I really need to do some training, I think I'm going to do this..." Again, especially pertaining to the campus board.
In retrospect, having read the book, I would characterize him as a classic "train harder" guy, whereas our philosophy is "smarter, not harder." I was exactly the same way (I still am that way when it comes to hiking, biking, etc). I really admire that "out-work everyone" philosophy, but its just plain inefficient. You do need to work hard and be very committed, but you need to pick your spots. That can be hard to learn when, for your entire life, just worker harder has always gotten the job done. I never learned that lesson while I was a runner, and I started climbing with the same attitude. "Fortunately" I suffered a bunch of injuries early on that forced me to re-evaluate my approach.
Some things in the book make me chuckle though, like when he said he was (I think) 33 and past his physical peak. LOL! I can see why someone would think that--when I was 29 I was desperate to climb 14a before I turned 30 because I was CONVINCED that I would start falling apart after that. I think that "work harder" approach works really well to a certain age, and clearly it did for him, so I wonder if part of his perception that he was past his prime was just the result of hitting the wall with the brute-force method. I'm sure he could at least get back to his physical peak, if not exceed it, if he trained systematically.
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Post by jetjackson on Nov 11, 2018 19:24:19 GMT -7
Thanks for the insight. Honestly, the first time I read the RPTM, I just figured that TC and Paige Claassen were RPTM followers. - That's completely fair enough IMO. Actions speak louder than words. Purely speculation, but it wouldn't surprise me if the time pressures of the second child are forcing him to be more time economical with training. As for the lack of response on 'endorsement' of the RPTM, that doesn't surprise me given the anecdotes in the book about Kevins use of social media, and TC's thoughts on that. He does go into detail in parts on his philosophy around sponsorships, and I think he sees them more as a means to an end. He didn't seem to want much of the media attention they were getting on the wall, and seems particularly frustrated with how the MSM got many of the facts wrong. - This is what appeals to me about the RPTM, given my other life pursuits. I also had overuse injuries from running in my twenties while trying to run my first Marathon. In the end, what got me to the starting line uninjured, was the smarter, not harder approach, opting for just 3 training sessions a week, vs. the four to 5 recommended by many Marathon training plans. However, I think this approach can be shunned by some, like you didn't 'earn it' because you didn't put in the work. This may just be envy, but I think it also speak a little bit to your earlier comment regarding being 'cool' in the climbing community. Hence responses like this from the old school climbing community here in Victoria to my training approach... "I assume the approach will be to find an overbolted, overgraded no-star classic, engage in a multi-weekend siege, and recreate all facets of the route on the home hangboard for after-work simulation (yay, what fun). You don't really need technique for that shit. Just rote learn all thirty moves of the route, develop sufficient strength and power-endurance in the fingers, consume enough empowering climbing memes to keep the boredom suppressed, and a shaking, wobbling, 'glorious send' will happen eventually."Anyway, I digress, but I kind of sensed an element of that 'training isn't cool' philosophy in TC while reading the book. I know he trains hard, but it's more like we're taking the Ivan Drago approach to climbing while he is taking the Rocky approach - here I'm thinking of where he talks about long trail runs to the boulders in Colorado, doing a bunch of hard problems and then going back to lift weights in the gym. At age 34, climbing mid 5.12 and harboring ambitions for things a lot harder.. I can't hear this stuff enough  |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Nov 11, 2018 22:11:54 GMT -7
Thanks for the insight. Honestly, the first time I read the RPTM, I just figured that TC and Paige Claassen were RPTM followers. Great! Then our clever marketing strategy worked, haha. However, I think this approach can be shunned by some, like you didn't 'earn it' because you didn't put in the work. This may just be envy, but I think it also speak a little bit to your earlier comment regarding being 'cool' in the climbing community. Hence responses like this from the old school climbing community here in Victoria to my training approach... ...Anyway, I digress, but I kind of sensed an element of that 'training isn't cool' philosophy in TC while reading the book. Definitely! That type of attitude was really common over here in the 2000's (I think its changed quite a bit, largely due to the RCTM if I do say so myself). People would say things like "it's cheating," but really its just good old fashioned jealously, mixed with some laziness and a desire to maintain the status quo. Part of the problem is that hard work is equated with sweat, and that's just stupid. There are lots of ways to work hard. I think a lot of the luddites are just turned off by the thinking required. A lot of our "work" is done researching, studying, learning and planning. Focusing on details instead of brute force. People don't like to do that shit in their free time! Definitely though, our approach is more academic and therefore "nerdy" by definition (and therefore the opposite of "cool"). I would never try to argue what we do is "cool." God, I hope it never becomes cool! I know he trains hard, but it's more like we're taking the Ivan Drago approach to climbing while he is taking the Rocky approach - here I'm thinking of where he talks about long trail runs to the boulders in Colorado, doing a bunch of hard problems and then going back to lift weights in the gym. Ya, I was totally SMH when I read that. That's a very 1980's mindset, which I also respect in some ways. In his defense, he says he was mostly training toughness. There is something to be said for training toughness--I could go on a rant here about some of the weak-sauce stuff I see from overly analytical sport climbers. Instead I'll just say he definitely seems tough as nails, so something he did worked! From a "what can we learn" perspective, I'm sure there's a sweet spot between making yourself as tough as possible so you can overcome a complete lack of tactics, versus using spreadsheets and weather models to justify quitting at the first hint of a challenge. We should strive to do all the mental leg-work to maximize the chances of an optimal experience, but once we get to the crag we need to also be mentally prepared to give our best effort no matter what unexpected obstacles arise (that's what I call my "What Would Sharma Do" crag mindset--once you get to the cliff, don't think too much, just squeeze like hell). From what I've read so far it seems like Tommy adopted a much more analytical approach as the project evolved, really looking at what went wrong and what he could do better next time, from a tactical perspective. A great example of this "sweet spot" was the way they climbed at night to get the best conditions. That really shows his commitment, tactical savvy and toughness all rolled into one. |
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richb
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Post by richb on Nov 12, 2018 11:36:32 GMT -7
I know he trains hard, but it's more like we're taking the Ivan Drago approach to climbing while he is taking the Rocky approach - here I'm thinking of where he talks about long trail runs to the boulders in Colorado, doing a bunch of hard problems and then going back to lift weights in the gym. Ya, I was totally SMH when I read that. That's a very 1980's mindset, which I also respect in some ways. In his defense, he says he was mostly training toughness. There is something to be said for training toughness--I could go on a rant here about some of the weak-sauce stuff I see from overly analytical sport climbers. Instead I'll just say he definitely seems tough as nails, so something he did worked! I remember reading about each of Tommy's legendary achievements of the mid-2000s, one after another: Flex Luthor, then the Nose with Beth, then the Nose-Freedrider linkup, then the Dihedral Wall, all in quick succession. He blew everyone's minds, over and over. I was in college; my friends and I were looking for modern climbing role models, and here was Tommy on this incomparable run of success. Articles written by him appeared in Climbing and Rock & Ice, where he'd describe in his aw-shucks-I'm-just-a-humble-mountain-boy-from-Colorado prose a training philosophy of "just doing massive days combining random physical feats." Instead of hitting the gym, or the hangboard, we imitated Tommy and did huge days of hiking and big mountain scrambles on Colorado 14ers, carried unnecessarily heavy packs, soloed dozens of easy pitches, etc. One of my friends would even purposely bring meager rations of food and water on long multipitch routes - "like a monk," he'd say. It was all pretty dumb, but it worked - we all got tougher. Not coincidentally, we also had a hierarchy based on toughness. We most admired the ability to climb hard under adverse conditions and looked down on people who only sport climbed or bouldered as weenies. This was an unfortunate side effect to the train-like-Tommy approach that I didn't shake off until years later. I wish I had had his book to read back then - I could have used his grown-up perspective! I'm thankful for the toughness these years imparted, but my fingers didn't get any stronger, and my max redpoint and onsight abilities certainly didn't improve. Is Tommy to blame for that? Probably. |
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Post by Chris W on Nov 12, 2018 21:15:16 GMT -7
So my book finally came in the mail while I was gone at the beautiful NRG. I just got back last night, so I know I'm behind everyone. I just finished chapter one in snatches at work this evening.
The thing that stood out to me about chapter one was Tommy's relationship with his dad. Regardless of his good and bad aspects, Tommy obviously looked up to, and toward, his father. It should serve as a reminder of how much we, as fathers, impact the lives of our wives and daughters, but especially influence our sons. Our sons can live and die on our actions and words and the smallest things, even when we think they aren't looking, can have a deep and lasting impact.
His exact methods and motives may be questionable, but I believe, based on Tommy's writings, that Mike deeply loved and cared for his family, especially his son. TC seems to think some of his father's motives for their adventures were selfish, but there was clearly some selflessness involved in adding the time and effort to take small children on his various climbs and activities.
It makes me happy to think that I put in all the time and energy needed to take my family out climbing and exploring. Taking a wife and four little kids to the NRG for a week is like planning an antarctic expedition, but they all cried (except my wife) on the last day because they didn't want to leave. It's clear that my oldest son is watching me, and his imitations are priceless. He'll go up to the wall, take his shirt off, grab the holds, grunt and yell, then stop to "shake out". I have to make sure I'm behaving myself. I want my boys to grow up to be better men than I am.
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Post by jetjackson on Nov 12, 2018 23:03:26 GMT -7
He'll go up to the wall, take his shirt off, grab the holds, grunt and yell, then stop to "shake out". I have to make sure I'm behaving myself. I want my boys to grow up to be better men than I am. That's awesome! |
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Post by Chris W on Nov 13, 2018 6:56:27 GMT -7
It makes me laugh each time I see him do it! It's funny watching the kids climb, because their movement and technique is so natural (and quite good). The girls climb, but not the same way Joseph does. Gabriel is only one year old, so we'll see how he does on the wall soon.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Nov 13, 2018 15:12:05 GMT -7
Glad to know that he does 7 seconds on, 3 seconds off repeaters. He did talk about Alex Megos I recall, and his really analytical and systematic approach to training, and that it influenced him. ... having said that, TC does feature in photos throughout the RPTM - Mark, did you guys influence his training at all? You mention only meeting him superficially. Ok, I read that part last night, so now I can comment a bit more intelligently.
Here is the timeline as I understand it now:
Fall/Winter 2012: Tommy on Dawn Wall using Rocky/Rocky II/Rocky IV-style training approach April 2013: RCTM Photoshoot w/ Tommy, Paige, me, etc Fall/Winter 2013: Tommy on Dawn Wall using Rocky/Rocky II/Rocky IV-style training approach November 2013: Jonathan comes to the Lazy H for training advice/demos, starts using RPTM January 2014: Jonathan sends La Lune, becomes convinced training works, starts 2nd training cycle in March 2014 for Ceuse April 2014: RCTM is released, Tommy gets a complimentary copy, which I imagine is used to prop up leg of wobbly table May 2014: Tommy travels to Europe, where he meets Alex Megos, but also visits Ceuse and hangs with/belays Jonathan on Realization Summer 2014: Tommy starts using 7/3 repeaters, summarizing on p. 281, "Meeting & climbing w/ people like Alex made me wonder if my thinking was outdated....I got into a routine back in Estes Park. Not doing the same exercises as Alex, but adopting a similar mindset...."
My theory is Alex Megos inspired him to try systematic training, but Jonathan told him what to do/how to do it. I doubt he read the RCTM, but maybe used it as a reference.
(Note, based on the questions I see, I doubt most of you have properly read the RCTM, and instead use it as a reference, lol, I can't blame you, its pretty dry!)
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Post by MarkAnderson on Nov 13, 2018 15:39:28 GMT -7
So my book finally came in the mail while I was gone at the beautiful NRG. I just got back last night, so I know I'm behind everyone. I just finished chapter one in snatches at work this evening. The thing that stood out to me about chapter one was Tommy's relationship with his dad. Regardless of his good and bad aspects, Tommy obviously looked up to, and toward, his father. It should serve as a reminder of how much we, as fathers, impact the lives of our wives and daughters, but especially influence our sons. Our sons can live and die on our actions and words and the smallest things, even when we think they aren't looking, can have a deep and lasting impact. His exact methods and motives may be questionable, but I believe, based on Tommy's writings, that Mike deeply loved and cared for his family, especially his son. TC seems to think some of his father's motives for their adventures were selfish, but there was clearly some selflessness involved in adding the time and effort to take small children on his various climbs and activities. It makes me happy to think that I put in all the time and energy needed to take my family out climbing and exploring. Taking a wife and four little kids to the NRG for a week is like planning an antarctic expedition, but they all cried (except my wife) on the last day because they didn't want to leave. It's clear that my oldest son is watching me, and his imitations are priceless. He'll go up to the wall, take his shirt off, grab the holds, grunt and yell, then stop to "shake out". I have to make sure I'm behaving myself. I want my boys to grow up to be better men than I am. I don’t see Mike Caldwell’s parenting as selfish, unless it’s selfish to want your kid to be great (I realize that some think it is; I disagree). Certainly I am far more selfish— when I take the kids climbing it’s 99% about me. I could take Logan up Devils Tower but I’d rather spend that weekend working my project, haha. But my point is, don’t be so sure dragging your kids to the crag, for the sake of your climbing, is helping them. It might help them. It might make them resent it. Logan is already burnt out on “going climbing,” which is something he’s very rarely done. But the idea of it, to him, is driving a long way, hiking a long way to get somewhere he couldn’t care less about, to sit around forever, then hiking back, driving back etc. In my experience, it’s a rare climber-parent who truly makes it about the kids. It seems that’s what Mike Caldwell did. |
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Post by Chris W on Nov 13, 2018 20:58:40 GMT -7
But my point is, don’t be so sure dragging your kids to the crag, for the sake of your climbing, is helping them. Very good point. One that I hadn't consciously thought of, but that I think I've subconsciously incorporated. When I take the kids out, it's pretty much about them. I will often hope there will be some way for me to climb, but don't bank on it. Of all of them, Joseph seems to like the actual "climbing" the most, but that's usually not the highlight for everyone. At Birdsboro, it's riding their bikes in, using the concrete crusher building we've converted into an outhouse, throwing rocks into the reservoir, looking for critters and eating the treats that I pack for our crag trips that they don't get on a regular basis. They'll get upset and cry if they don't get a chance to climb, but they're often happy with several trips up and down a route (Joseph wants to do the most). At the NRG this trip, one of the big outings was taking them down the Fern Creek ladders and letting them crawl through the rock tunnels at the base of the cliff. When we're at the New, I try to do one "climbing day", either with a partner without the kids, followed by one "rest day", which is all about doing whatever everyone wants to do. Sometimes I can do a half and half, like doing the guide routes for the kids at the Super Mario Boulder, followed by a few quick afternoon burns on a route before going back to help with dinner. I would agree that it seems Mike tried to make trips and outings with the specific intent of focusing on the family. Back to the book: I just read up to the point Tommy and Sharma did Just Do It in chapter four. Before that, Tommy is on top of the world winning Snowbird, then he gets into a major funk where he can't figure out if it's his body changing or his mental approach to climbing that's causing the funk, then he has a rough trip up El Cap, then he's back on top of the world again climbing Just Do It. Did I miss something? What was the cause of his funk? Was it mental, physical, or both? How did he get himself out of his funk? |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Nov 14, 2018 9:04:07 GMT -7
I just read up to the point Tommy and Sharma did Just Do It in chapter four. Before that, Tommy is on top of the world winning Snowbird, then he gets into a major funk where he can't figure out if it's his body changing or his mental approach to climbing that's causing the funk, then he has a rough trip up El Cap, then he's back on top of the world again climbing Just Do It. Did I miss something? What was the cause of his funk? Was it mental, physical, or both? How did he get himself out of his funk? It was pretty clear to me his funk was caused by climbing with Chris and realizing he wasn’t the best and (whether true or not) he could never be the best. Until then he was always everyone’s darling, then he runs into this juggernaut. Look at when he climbed Just Do It—he’s disappointed about it,because Chris did it so much faster. For the first time ever there’s pressure on him to perform. Clearly after the wobbler in Rifle he retreats from sport climbing in hopes of finding an “unobstructed” (by Chris, etc) path to “best in the world.” You could view that as kinda weak, but I understand it and admire it in some ways. It shows a lot of self-awareness. I also admire the desire to be the best at something, anything, and I thinks there’s a lot of wisdom in finding the niche that fits you perfectly. That said, I don’t really agree with his belief that he could never compete with Chris. Obviously he’s a lot more willing to work than Chris ever was, and had he directed that energy efficiently I’m sure he could have consistently outperformed Chris. Maybe he felt, why bother with the uphill battle when I can take the path of least resistance (and probably enjoy myself more too). Eventual Im sure he grew to really love big wall free climbing but it sure looked to me like initially, he was just desperate for a win and saw some low-hanging fruit. I’ve done the same thing many times. |
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Post by Chris W on Nov 14, 2018 10:35:56 GMT -7
That makes sense. Do you really think he could outperform Sharma? He's a bit of an enigma to me. He must have some type of natural talent or ability. TC definitely seems to have a drive and a desire that doesn't seem to be in Sharma. |
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