Post by jetjackson on Aug 15, 2018 20:34:15 GMT -7
I listened to one of the latest Training Beta Podcasts which featured Steve Bechtel discussing endurance training.
The basic intro to the conversation was a bit of him admitting that his prior ideas on endurance training may have been incorrect, and now he is more informed.
He discussed this concept of 'High/Low' training, which appears to have been picked up from a chap by the name of Charlie Francis. It covers this idea that for power athletes, training in that medium intensity zone is counter-productive as it doesn't achieve a lot vs. the recovery that is required, so it's less economical to train, so to speak. i.e. training for the pump is not ideal. Apparently Charlie Francis just got his sprinters to train in that ATP-Pcr zone. He realised that his sprinters were slowing down at the 60m mark, or about the 8 second mark as they transitioned into the 2nd energy system. So he just got them to train to 60m, and the results were apparently very positive.
Partially I think this comes from his experience with people who train for the pump on a regular basis. So many be less applicable to someone following the RPTM cycle to the letter.
He does note that Power Endurance is still worth training, but we should think of it as 'the icing on the cake'. That it should be used sparingly.
A bit more on his ideas here - www.climbstrong.com/endurance-3-0/ and of course you can listen on the latest TBP.
Anyway, he splits out endurance training into 3 types.
Extensive Endurance
Intensive Endurance
Power Endurance
When discussing Extensive Endurance, we notes that he hates the term ARC, and then describes people doing, what I would agree, is low value ARC - i.e. just traversing on random big holds with no serious technique built in. To me, that's an issue with people who don't understand ARC properly, rather than an issue with ARC. In the TBpodcast he talks about how this needs to be trained year round, and for extended periods of time to become effective, although he puts forward two ways to train this ExtE - by throwing in laps, maybe 8 US letter grades below your RP, say 3 or so laps at the end of performance days; then during training periods, doing maybe 30-60 minutes or so of really low intensity 'ARC' either at the end of power/strength sessions, or on your off days when recovering from these sessions (although he proposes doing it on the off days, and then says that it should be done when fully warmed up from a power/strength/performance session, so a bit contradictory there?!)
In the podcast, for ExtE - he also proposed dedicated endurance sessions, which really just sounded like really low intensity route 4x4's.
Getting onto intensive endurance - on his site he proposes this as linked bouldering problems with 'real-world' rest in between them. Then he differentiates that from PE where PE is just 2-3 problems 'linked by traversing' - Which to me just seems to sound like LBCs? However on the podcast he proposes intensive endurance as say, picking a boulder problem at say just below your flash level, and then taking a 15 minute session, and doing the problem at the start of each minute. Intuitively to me, that sounds like you're training endurance in that 'High Zone', but not sure how valid that is.
Finally on PE he proposes this as the icing on the cake which should only be done a few times a year. Which I think on the periodized RPTM you're really only doing it as the icing on the cake anyway.
That's a bit of a ramble, but I want to break it into two things that I think may have validity;
1. Year round training of that 'Extensive Endurance' aka 'Aerobic Endurance'
2. The Charlie Francis 'High-Low'concept. Particularly the training of the ATP-Pcr Zone
So, number 1. Is there any validity to this? I've heard Lee Sheftel put his endurance down to running a few laps on an easy route at the end of the day for the many decades of his climbing career. It somewhat appeals to me, as I feel that for time scheduling, if I could cut my ARC periods shorter, and work ARC into the strength and power phases at the end of sessions, or during the days off, and if I added 3 or so low intensity laps to the end of my performance days at the crag, it would be beneficial for me to working my training cycles around life/seasons. I'm still not that convinced of this concept though - I would have thought that if the intensity is low enough on the ARC training, that it would not impact recovery from the power/strength sessions, then it would not actually be that beneficial.
As for 2. Bechtel proposed this idea of training that '1st gear' as he calls it on the podcast, whereby you take a boulder problem just below flash limit and do it at the start of every minute for say 15 minutes, resting in between. I'm unclear of the exact intention here, but he seems to believe that this improves endurance. This is distinct from PE training however - I'm not sure how you would program this into a cycle - perhaps you do a stage after power where you work this in, and then transition into PE in the transition into the performance phase to put that icing on the cake.
Has anyone else heard these ideas, applied them, or listened to this podcast at all?
The basic intro to the conversation was a bit of him admitting that his prior ideas on endurance training may have been incorrect, and now he is more informed.
He discussed this concept of 'High/Low' training, which appears to have been picked up from a chap by the name of Charlie Francis. It covers this idea that for power athletes, training in that medium intensity zone is counter-productive as it doesn't achieve a lot vs. the recovery that is required, so it's less economical to train, so to speak. i.e. training for the pump is not ideal. Apparently Charlie Francis just got his sprinters to train in that ATP-Pcr zone. He realised that his sprinters were slowing down at the 60m mark, or about the 8 second mark as they transitioned into the 2nd energy system. So he just got them to train to 60m, and the results were apparently very positive.
Partially I think this comes from his experience with people who train for the pump on a regular basis. So many be less applicable to someone following the RPTM cycle to the letter.
He does note that Power Endurance is still worth training, but we should think of it as 'the icing on the cake'. That it should be used sparingly.
A bit more on his ideas here - www.climbstrong.com/endurance-3-0/ and of course you can listen on the latest TBP.
Anyway, he splits out endurance training into 3 types.
Extensive Endurance
Intensive Endurance
Power Endurance
When discussing Extensive Endurance, we notes that he hates the term ARC, and then describes people doing, what I would agree, is low value ARC - i.e. just traversing on random big holds with no serious technique built in. To me, that's an issue with people who don't understand ARC properly, rather than an issue with ARC. In the TBpodcast he talks about how this needs to be trained year round, and for extended periods of time to become effective, although he puts forward two ways to train this ExtE - by throwing in laps, maybe 8 US letter grades below your RP, say 3 or so laps at the end of performance days; then during training periods, doing maybe 30-60 minutes or so of really low intensity 'ARC' either at the end of power/strength sessions, or on your off days when recovering from these sessions (although he proposes doing it on the off days, and then says that it should be done when fully warmed up from a power/strength/performance session, so a bit contradictory there?!)
In the podcast, for ExtE - he also proposed dedicated endurance sessions, which really just sounded like really low intensity route 4x4's.
Getting onto intensive endurance - on his site he proposes this as linked bouldering problems with 'real-world' rest in between them. Then he differentiates that from PE where PE is just 2-3 problems 'linked by traversing' - Which to me just seems to sound like LBCs? However on the podcast he proposes intensive endurance as say, picking a boulder problem at say just below your flash level, and then taking a 15 minute session, and doing the problem at the start of each minute. Intuitively to me, that sounds like you're training endurance in that 'High Zone', but not sure how valid that is.
Finally on PE he proposes this as the icing on the cake which should only be done a few times a year. Which I think on the periodized RPTM you're really only doing it as the icing on the cake anyway.
That's a bit of a ramble, but I want to break it into two things that I think may have validity;
1. Year round training of that 'Extensive Endurance' aka 'Aerobic Endurance'
2. The Charlie Francis 'High-Low'concept. Particularly the training of the ATP-Pcr Zone
So, number 1. Is there any validity to this? I've heard Lee Sheftel put his endurance down to running a few laps on an easy route at the end of the day for the many decades of his climbing career. It somewhat appeals to me, as I feel that for time scheduling, if I could cut my ARC periods shorter, and work ARC into the strength and power phases at the end of sessions, or during the days off, and if I added 3 or so low intensity laps to the end of my performance days at the crag, it would be beneficial for me to working my training cycles around life/seasons. I'm still not that convinced of this concept though - I would have thought that if the intensity is low enough on the ARC training, that it would not impact recovery from the power/strength sessions, then it would not actually be that beneficial.
As for 2. Bechtel proposed this idea of training that '1st gear' as he calls it on the podcast, whereby you take a boulder problem just below flash limit and do it at the start of every minute for say 15 minutes, resting in between. I'm unclear of the exact intention here, but he seems to believe that this improves endurance. This is distinct from PE training however - I'm not sure how you would program this into a cycle - perhaps you do a stage after power where you work this in, and then transition into PE in the transition into the performance phase to put that icing on the cake.
Has anyone else heard these ideas, applied them, or listened to this podcast at all?