mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Oct 5, 2017 8:41:00 GMT -7
I'm posting this here rather than in the Off-Topic forum because it does relate to Planning, Scheduling and Goal Setting in a very long-term way. I've been giving climbing, the RCTM, and life a lot of thought recently and came across this video on YT a few weeks ago. I have another child on the way and the potential for a major career shift later this year. I've been training with the RCTM for almost two years and I haven't seen the improvement I was hoping to see. As I've been in this season of rumination I find myself considering the upcoming life changes and how they will affect my long-term climbing goals. The video highlights four areas that are limiting factors to improving long-term in your climbing: Genetics, Determination, Starting Age, and Privilege.
I've been assessing where I fall in each of those limiting categories and, combined with training log review, I believe my main reason for not improving in the past two years is lack of access to training facilities and motivated partners. This is exacerbated by not getting outside and climbing/projecting on real rock enough.
Genetics seem to be pretty good for long-term continued climbing improvement, based on my father still playing basketball in his mid-60's (high metabolism and general athleticism; also have a +7 ape index). I guess I'm as determined as the next guy; still faithfully following the program without any real breakthrough. I started climbing at age 33 (now 38); this seems like a big detriment, but again I'm planning very long-term. Which brings me lastly to privilege. By this I believe Mani means access to training facilities and good climbing, along with the means to spend time and money on the pursuit.
Since I may have some say in the near future about the privilege category, I need advice about what sort of difference being closer to a world-class gym or world-class climbing would do for a long-term RCTM'er. I've had strong climbers tell me (repeatedly) that all you need is a 45 degree woody and a TRX. I have a small home wall but not being an intuitive climber I really struggle to make interesting problems with my limited number of holds and a set angle of 5-10 degrees overhang. I do have world-class climbing that is a 6 hour round trip away, but with a young family there are limitations to how often I can get there. There is almost no sport climbing closer to my house.
At this point I'm leaning towards changing the only one of the four factors I can - privilege (proximity to good facilities and other climbers). I think that living in a city closer to other climbers, a world-class gym and lots of outdoor climbing (although not world-class like I currently have 6 hours away) could make my long-term goals manageable. I'm needing some beta from the RCTM gurus here! Is it worth making the move?
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Post by tetrault on Oct 5, 2017 9:35:15 GMT -7
Is the only motivation/reason for moving related to climbing?
I don't have much insight, but it seems to me that unless local climbing allows for, and you have a desire to solo-top rope, having a solid partner or pool of partners is a big deal; increasing motivation, enjoyment, and keeping the overall climbing dreams and aspirations alive with quality outdoor sessions.
I consider myself quite lucky to have the "go-to" partner that I have had for the last few years and could attribute a portion of all of my recent climbing "successes" to this. YMMV.
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Post by aikibujin on Oct 5, 2017 11:08:44 GMT -7
If I were in your shoes, I would move to a place with lots of outdoor climbing opportunities nearby. In fact, I did just that. I moved to Denver precisely for all the outdoor climbing around the Front Range. Just packed my car to the roof, drove all the way out here from Florida with my wife, and stayed in a friend’s basement for two weeks while I started looking for a job and a place to rent. Of course then I ended up NOT climbing for a few years because I was working minimal wage jobs and had no health insurance, so don’t do exactly what I did.
I think having easy access to outdoor climbing nearby is more important than having world-class outdoor climbing that’s half a day’s drive away. In fact, it’s probably better to have a bunch of different rocks nearby than one world-class crag. For example, you can live in Bend, OR and climb at Smith all the time, but you only get used to climbing that particular style. If you live in Denver and climb at a bunch of ok areas, you get to climb on granite, schist, gneiss, limestone, sandstone, and that really helps expanding your style. At the risk of making Denver more crowded than it already is, I think Front Range is a great place for climbers. None of the climbing in the Front Range is world class (I don’t care what the Eldo-diehards say, Eldo is NOT world class!), but there are a lot of variety. Forget about world-class gym, it will do less for your climbing than you think. Adam Ondra trains in a dingy little bouldering gym. I’m no Adam Ondra, but I trained only on a hangboard this year and I’m still seeing improvement in my climbing purely because I can get out on the weekends and climb.
As far as partner goes, once you’re in a place with easy access to climbing, your potential pool of partners becomes huge. It may still be hard to find good partners with similar goals, commitment, or schedule, but I bet you have a better chance than if the closet climbing is 6 hours away.
But also like Mark said, “there’s more to life than climbing”. So make sure your move also make sense for your career, for your family, and for your quality of life (fortunately climbing is a big part of that). I took a huge gamble moving out to Denver without a job or even an apartment lined up. It worked out in the end, but I could also ended up working minimal wage jobs for the rest of my life (and no climbing). So take everything else into account as well, good luck!
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Post by Chris W on Oct 5, 2017 20:16:59 GMT -7
There's so much to say about this that I don't even know where I would start. Just be careful, McClay, or you could end up pretty far down the rabbit hole.
If you haven't, check out the very first post Mark ever did on the blog.
If something isn't working, figure out why. There's nothing you can do about your genetics or age, though understanding both can help you reach your goals more efficiently. You're on your own for determination. As far as circumstances go, moving may not be the answer. Mike Anderson improved and climbed pretty darn hard training overseas and living in Florida.
I'm 34 years old, 35 in January, and didn't start climbing until my late 20's. I have three kids, the oldest of which just turned 6, and who is running a fever right now. We're expecting baby number 4 on Thanksgiving. I live in South Central PA, not exactly a climbing meca. I live here because it's the best thing for my family. I work a full time job and a lot of mornings, weekends, evenings, and almost every single recognized holiday, though I'm hoping to avoid working Christmas Day this year. I have a heck of a time finding climbing partners to fit with my schedule. I'm not genetically gifted. I am, however, getting better via the Rock Prodigy method, and I train REALLY, REALLY hard. My biggest material advantage is my barn, where I have my climbing wall that I built.
It may be very possible for you to get better with what you already have available.
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Post by aikibujin on Oct 5, 2017 22:06:19 GMT -7
Mike Anderson improved and climbed pretty darn hard training overseas and living in Florida. I'd like to point out that Mike also lives in Colorado now.
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mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Oct 5, 2017 22:45:25 GMT -7
Is the only motivation/reason for moving related to climbing? Career and family concerns are the main reasons for a potential move. Climbing-related concerns only make up about 20% of the picture. But if we relocate I would obviously like it to be beneficial to my climbing (and my kid's climbing! They currently love indoor climbing so being close to a gym is even more of a priority).
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mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Oct 5, 2017 22:53:06 GMT -7
I think having easy access to outdoor climbing nearby is more important than having world-class outdoor climbing that’s half a day’s drive away. In fact, it’s probably better to have a bunch of different rocks nearby than one world-class crag. For example, you can live in Bend, OR and climb at Smith all the time, but you only get used to climbing that particular style. If you live in Denver and climb at a bunch of ok areas, you get to climb on granite, schist, gneiss, limestone, sandstone, and that really helps expanding your style. At the risk of making Denver more crowded than it already is, I think Front Range is a great place for climbers. None of the climbing in the Front Range is world class (I don’t care what the Eldo-diehards say, Eldo is NOT world class!), but there are a lot of variety. Forget about world-class gym, it will do less for your climbing than you think. Adam Ondra trains in a dingy little bouldering gym. I’m no Adam Ondra, but I trained only on a hangboard this year and I’m still seeing improvement in my climbing purely because I can get out on the weekends and climb. As far as partner goes, once you’re in a place with easy access to climbing, your potential pool of partners becomes huge. It may still be hard to find good partners with similar goals, commitment, or schedule, but I bet you have a better chance than if the closet climbing is 6 hours away. This is very helpful. I was leaning this direction, but with actual places mentioned in your post it makes my decision (at least where climbing is concerned) clearer. The potential relocation would be to Johannesburg, South Africa. There isn't a great diversity of rock types, but 4 lower-quality sport crags, all quartzite, within an hour's drive. Multi-pitch trad would be about an hour and half outside of the city. Joberg also has a great new gym and the largest concentration of climbers in southern Africa. And it would still be a 6 hour round trip to Waterval-Boven.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 6, 2017 4:41:03 GMT -7
Mike Anderson improved and climbed pretty darn hard training overseas and living in Florida. I'd like to point out that Mike also lives in Colorado now. Harharhar! Very true! If I could, I'd move down to Fayetteville West Virginia, but there's no way my wife would be happy there. I live about an hour away from my home crag here, which is really helpful.
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Post by aikibujin on Oct 6, 2017 6:40:03 GMT -7
The potential relocation would be to Johannesburg, South Africa. There isn't a great diversity of rock types, but 4 lower-quality sport crags, all quartzite, within an hour's drive. Multi-pitch trad would be about an hour and half outside of the city. Joberg also has a great new gym and the largest concentration of climbers in southern Africa. And it would still be a 6 hour round trip to Waterval-Boven. I'd like to point out that Mike also lives in Colorado now. Harharhar! Very true! If I could, I'd move down to Fayetteville West Virginia, but there's no way my wife would be happy there. I live about an hour away from my home crag here, which is really helpful. An hour drive to local climbing is very reasonable. I live about 45 minutes from the closest climbing (well actually I have some really crappy climbing about 10 minutes away... but I never go there), and I can get outside often if I'm motivated.
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Post by jetjackson on Oct 8, 2017 15:05:48 GMT -7
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mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Oct 9, 2017 2:25:24 GMT -7
The question I would have though - is what gains were you expecting through the training, and what gains did you actually get? Yeah, I guess that is an underlying issue. Before I started the RCTM my hardest RP was 19 (SA Ewbank scale - this is around 5.10b/c depending on who you ask and which area in SA you climb in). I had done one Waterval-Boven 18 and the grades there are considered pretty solid/verging on sandbagged depending on when the route went up. Now my current hardest RP is 21, but it was a short, bouldery thing in an area without much pedigree. I can work the moves of Boven 20/21's pretty easily, but I haven't RP those grades at that crag. I don't boulder outside much at established areas, but in gym bouldering I can usually get V3/V4 in softer gyms either flash or a few attempts. I don't have a pre-training bouldering benchmark. Part of my frustration is that the first time I ever climbed was in Waterval-Boven 5 years ago. I only top roped on a weekend mountain club trip but I did all the moves of a couple of 19/20's. So in the back of my mind I've known that those moves/grades were possible without training and my expectation was that with applied effort the intermediate grades (21-24) would come pretty quickly. My first three years of climbing were pretty erratic, but the past two have been based on the book. I've had life scupper at least 3 Performance stages in those two years. I find the training plan brings a lot of stability to busy work/family life, but blocking out a few Performance weeks, especially when far from a sport crag, is my real crux!
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Post by jetjackson on Oct 9, 2017 4:11:47 GMT -7
FTR nearly all of my first breaks into the next grade have been short bouldery things Sounds like you might just more time outdoors? How's your head game? What's the gap between your RP indoor top-rope vs. lead? Doing all the moves on top rope on a route is way different to putting it all together on lead IMO. In my 20s I used to go to the gym on the occasional 10 punch pass, and I'd climb 10 times in a couple of months and then not go for another year and then return the next time they did the 10 punch offer. I'd regularly get to the point where I could send maybe one Ewbank 22, and I could do the moves on say half a dozen others. When I finally 'started climbing properly' it was a solid 12 months of proper climbing before I sent my first 22 on lead, and at least another 12 months until I was consistently sending 22 on lead. Point is - if I compared to my top-rope self of years prior, it doesn't really indicate much. You mention 3 of your performance seasons being scuppered due to life stuff, so 50% of your performance phases. That's a pretty big impact. Many of my breakthroughs to date have happened during the ARC phase, or on a quick impromptu break from hangboarding to go climbing for a weekend because the weather was great and some friends were going. Perhaps having some more fluidity to your outdoor climbing could help? You should also listen to the recent training beta podcast where they interview Lee Sheftel, who started at 33 and climbed 5.14 in his 50s. Lynn Hill said to him "Patience Lee, you gotta have patience!"
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Post by Lundy on Oct 9, 2017 6:17:18 GMT -7
I think you might just need more time on rock. I used to live in Mozambique and climbed a lot at Boven, and while the grades are what they are, they climbing is really technical at every grade. I remember having my mind blown by an 18 or 19 there that I thought was just unbelievable, tricky, technical movement (I was climbing 29 at the time). I could easily see beginners struggling to make progress there if they're not climbing a lot, as so much of getting up a climb there is knowing how to move, not whether you can pull on a hold. Boven really rewards having a huge database of movement in your brain...
Anyway, all that to say you might be getting stronger, but strength might never have been your limiting factor, especially at a place like Boven.
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mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Oct 10, 2017 0:23:44 GMT -7
Sounds like you might just more time outdoors? How's your head game? What's the gap between your RP indoor top-rope vs. lead? Doing all the moves on top rope on a route is way different to putting it all together on lead IMO. In my 20s I used to go to the gym on the occasional 10 punch pass, and I'd climb 10 times in a couple of months and then not go for another year and then return the next time they did the 10 punch offer. I'd regularly get to the point where I could send maybe one Ewbank 22, and I could do the moves on say half a dozen others. When I finally 'started climbing properly' it was a solid 12 months of proper climbing before I sent my first 22 on lead, and at least another 12 months until I was consistently sending 22 on lead. Point is - if I compared to my top-rope self of years prior, it doesn't really indicate much. You should also listen to the recent training beta podcast where they interview Lee Sheftel, who started at 33 and climbed 5.14 in his 50s. Lynn Hill said to him "Patience Lee, you gotta have patience!" This is very helpful. Just to see that other people have had the same TR to lead transition troubles. Quantifying your head game is tricky, but of the people I routinely climb with I'm the only one that is pushing into the "unknown" and taking unplanned lead falls above bolts on a regular basis. I know that is only a small part of the whole head game thing, but I've gone through Rock Warrior's Way and I've noted several holistic improvements in the past year. I have listened to that podcast, but I just went back and downloaded it to give it another listen.
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mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Oct 10, 2017 0:41:33 GMT -7
I think you might just need more time on rock. I used to live in Mozambique and climbed a lot at Boven, and while the grades are what they are, they climbing is really technical at every grade. I remember having my mind blown by an 18 or 19 there that I thought was just unbelievable, tricky, technical movement (I was climbing 29 at the time). I could easily see beginners struggling to make progress there if they're not climbing a lot, as so much of getting up a climb there is knowing how to move, not whether you can pull on a hold. Boven really rewards having a huge database of movement in your brain... Anyway, all that to say you might be getting stronger, but strength might never have been your limiting factor, especially at a place like Boven. Getting out on rock seems to be the main takeaway. Your explanation of Boven makes so much sense, but I've always defaulted to "I'm not strong enough" or "I just don't have the endurance" excuses. But thinking back to specific routes that I have struggled to redpoint in the past it almost always came down to subtle shifts in beta/movement that made the whole thing come together. Upon finishing up such a redpoint I can't remember there ever being a sense of "I'm so much stronger/powerful now and that made all the difference." It was always "Why didn't I see that tiny foothold etc." I'm curious to see how this will related to the uber-long term development. Either way the career decision/move goes, Boven will be my goal-route crag for the next 2-4 years. Do you think that having a technical/database of movement style as one's base development stage (first 1-10 years of climbing) will have a positive effect on later years of climbing? Especially if strength and power is continually trained via RCTM protocols?
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