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Post by Chris W on Sept 30, 2017 18:44:22 GMT -7
OK, so I've entered uncharted waters and need a bit of help with strategy.
1) How should you project a Power Endurance Route 2) When should you start redpoint burns?
My project is The Streak 13a out at Birdsboro. The first "pitch" is 4 bolts of easy 5.10 to the first anchors and a good shake, then basically 3 hard sections for the second "pitch" to reach the chains. The hard sections are each separated by a clipping jug, which lets your clipping hand rest, but no good place to switch hands to shake out the other.
The "crux" of the route, I feel, isn't one particular stopper section; it's linking all of the hard sections together for the send.
I projected it in the spring, but didn't have the fitness to send. Now, I can do each hard section, from "the dog", every time, piece of cake. I have not, however, linked any of the hard sections together. I tried for a redpoint attempt today, cruised through the first hard section, and didn't make it through the second.
So.... now what? I've never been in this situation on a route before.
Should I spend time trying to link hard section 2 with hard section 3, then once this is accomplished try section 1 linked to section 2? Then what? Go for the redpoint, or try to link section 1, 2 and 3 together first before the redpoint?
Should I just retreat into the barn for a week and get in two solid PE sessions before getting back on the route? I'm certainly eating a large portion of humble pie on this route.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 30, 2017 20:45:16 GMT -7
1) Why did you fail (on your redpoint attempt)? Did you not know what to do? Did you know what to do but forget or fail to follow through? Did you pump out? Did you fail on a stopper move?
2) Before you fell, did you climb well? In other words, would you benefit from more practice on the 1st section in order to climb it more efficiently/quickly?
If I were you I'd be trying to redpoint. The real question is how do you get the most out of your burn after a fall? Probably by rehearsing any/all of the 3 hard sections, then trying to get longer links into/out of each.
As for training, I don't think there's much benefit to training PE more than once every 5-7 days. So if I could do whatever I wanted schedule-wise I would do 2 days on the rock and one on plastic each week.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 1, 2017 4:20:36 GMT -7
1) Fell at start of second hard section from odd type of pump where fingers wouldn't open and grip well. Not a painful burning pump. Not sure what this means, but wondering if my pain tolerance is changing of if the section just takes too much strength to go through. It doesn't feel hard any more when I do it.
2) I could benefit from a little more practice organizing my micro beta for my feet at the start of hard section 1 and transition from section 2 to 3. Flubbed the start of the first hard section a little and wasted energy. Definitely felt anxious, re-reading the Rock Warriors Way.
So, I should still try for a redpoint attempt, but if I fall I should focus on trying to make a link? How long do you rest while hanging (I clip in direct to save my belayer some grief).
Also, my warm up involves climbing the first pitch and hanging the draws, then going bolt-to-bolt through the hard sections to rehearse the moves. I rested 25 anxious minutes before tying in for the redpoint burn. I was so excited to get out and climb on it that I was about to wet my pants all day at work.
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Post by jcm on Oct 1, 2017 10:04:11 GMT -7
Methinks you is making red points attempts much soon.
This is a common error on PE routes. If each section feels easy in isolation, you can convince yourself you are close to sending and start trying to link it from the ground. Generally a bad idea, and can create frustration and stagnation.
A preferred strategy is to start trying to piece together longer links, and overlapping links. Doing the links "top down" seems to work well. Can you link the final problem through the outro to reach the anchor? Good. Now can you start one or two bolts lower and link to the chains? Good. And so on... This teaches you how to climb the final red points cruxes with greater and greater levels of fatigue as you make longer links.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 1, 2017 20:16:20 GMT -7
I respectfully disagree 100% with the above advice (even though the legendary PRC advocates it).
Many climbers have a strong aversion to trying to send. Why? For some, fear of falling can be a significant factor. For more seasoned climbers its often a combination of fear of failure and a strong dislike for the anxiety (or even dread) that precedes each attempt. Climbers who really struggle with this would be best served by seeking out as many redpoint opportunities as possible, but instead they often devise elaborate schemes & rationale for avoiding them (like toproping routes that would be much more practically led).
I'm not suggesting you have a fear of failure or falling (maybe you do, I have no idea), but you definitely have some issues with anxiety, or at least you did on that day. It's gonna be really hard to send if every time you tie in to send it feels like the biggest moment of your life. The best way to cope with that is to redpoint as frequently as possible. For one thing, you might just send when you weren't expecting to--it happens all the time. Regardless, redpointing often will make it mundane, teach you to cope with the stress, and help you develop a routine that gives you the best chance of success.
RE: your question, if you're really pumped, maybe 5 minutes or more? Whatever it takes so you feel you can get a good link. If I'm not especially pumped I'll usually rest around 1-2 minutes between links.
Other comments: it sounds like you still need to rehearse the individual boulder problems some more. It's not enough to know the moves, you also have to rehearse the moves (often). So maybe start with that (after a RP fall) before striving to link the boulder problems. I would probably try to send, then after a fall, try the first BP until I climb it once really well, at which point I would continue climbing climbing until I fell again. Then I'd try whatever section I fell on until I climed it well, etc to the chains (or until I ran out skin/time/power).
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Post by Chris W on Oct 2, 2017 3:30:39 GMT -7
Thanks for the advice. I'll be heading out this AM and will let you know how it goes.
1) No fear of falling (I fall quite often), but definitely fear of failure and dislike of anxiety. The two main things that have helped me achieve such a dramatic improvement in the last 3 years are the RCTM and The Rock Warrior's Way. I've improved on "performance anxiety" a level ton since reading the Rock Warrior's Way shortly after the RCTM came out (read it after learning about it in the RCTM). It's still a huge challenge though, and almost every season I prepare for redpoint jitters by reading the Rock Warriors Way again (or listening to it in the car).
2) What is the PRC? Google says the Peoples Republic of China
3) I'll plan, for now, on making a redpoint attempt. If I fall, I'll rehearse the boulder problems and refine the micro-beta (feet, mostly) until it's automatic, then I'll make links once I have it ruthlessly wired.
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Post by tetrault on Oct 2, 2017 10:48:32 GMT -7
Thanks for being so open about your experience so far, Chris. I agree that the Rock Warrior's Way is a helpful/powerful book in one's overall climbing "career", but I wonder if replaying/reading it at send time is really the best use of your time or mental energy. When it comes down to the send, I have found Jerry Moffatts advice from 1:03-5:07 of this video of more immediate benefit. m.youtube.com/watch?v=FpIyjTM_IucPer Moffatt's advice, using mental energy for visualizing the route and understanding and accepting that the right nerves are a good thing might be quite helpful. I had an interesting feeling on the route that I had best visualized to date, almost as if I was merely watching a movie of the route being climbed, and knowing for sure how the movie ended (with a send!). There was little going on in my brain other than the mental image and "feel" of the next hold automatically being "played" in my head. I believe PRC is a reference to Performance Rock Climbing; another excellent book. Enjoy your future RP attempts!
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 2, 2017 13:18:20 GMT -7
What sad times are these when Performance Rock Climbing is unknown, even on the Rock Prodigy forum. There is a pestilence upon this land. Nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design climbing training books are under considerable stress at this period in history.
The Moffat video is great! When I'm stressed over a hard redpoint I actually re-read Revelations. It has a lot of great insight, but it also provides a great example for how to approach climbing--try really f-ing hard!!!
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Post by Chris W on Oct 2, 2017 13:33:42 GMT -7
I'll have to check it out at home.
So I went out today, got a new high point, and found a new sequence to make section 2 MUCH easier. This is going to help me save a ton of strength to use for section 3.
First time up was the warm up, and I used it to rehearse moves (and found the new sequence). I still have two sections where I need to cement my foot beta into my mind.
Second go was the redpoint attempt with the new high point. Fudging around with my beta transitioning from section 2 to section 3 is where I fell. I rehearsed this some more to learn it better, then went to the top.
I didn't get a second redpoint attempt. This was sabotaged by my rope. When I pulled it through the draws, the end whipped around on itself and it actually tied itself on to the biner of the second draw from the top. I have never seen that before. I used my third go to free the rope and rehearse the moves.
Regarding the Rock Warriors Way, I actually find it to be extremely helpful to review it when I'm in this phase. I find it to be comforting.
I do like the idea of practicing redpointing.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 6, 2017 14:40:50 GMT -7
Do you think it's a bar idea to attempt to redpoint on the warm up? The first part is pretty casual. Assuming none of the other kids start running a fever, I'm taking the whole crew out tomorrow morning, which is always a bit tricky. Sometimes I only get one or two go's.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 6, 2017 17:03:42 GMT -7
Normally yes, it's a bad idea to try to send on your warmup. There's a decent chance you'll get flash pumped, which could spoil the rest of the day, in addition to the first/warmup burn.
That said, your circumstances are somewhat unusual. If you knew going in you could only get two goes tomorrow total, I would certainly spend both of them on your project. On the warmup go I would climb until I felt the pump was getting to be unsustainable. Then I'd take, rest a bit and do a short dogging session. 2nd go would be like any other redpoint attempt. It's good to get a bit pumped during your warmup, just don't over-do it.
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Post by aikibujin on Oct 6, 2017 18:01:59 GMT -7
Based on your description of the route: 4 bolts of easy 5.10 to three sections of hard (presumably 5.13a) climbing. I really don't think you should try to send it on warmup. I doubt 4 bolts of 5.10 climbing will warm you up for the 5.13 section, so if you really try hard you'll most likely end up flash pumped. The last time you were on it you were still finding new (easier) beta, so it sounds like you may not have the sequence totally dialed yet. I would use the first go to warm up, rehearse the moves, and then give a 100% try-hard attempt on the second go.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 6, 2017 19:37:37 GMT -7
Sounds good. As long as no one has a fever in the morning, we'll go. It's always a circus taking everyone out! I wonder what other people think when they all roll up to the rock.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 7, 2017 17:56:36 GMT -7
New high point today. Got really close to sending the route, fell trying to stick the last hard move. I kept my usual warm up by going bolt to bolt through the hard section. My redpoint jitters were my biggest challenge* on the first redpoint burn, but I had my first "official" one hang, finishing the climb by linking section 2 through to the anchors. First time for that. My second redpoint burn was much better, after burning off some of the jitters, and resulted in my new high point and near send. I got a third redpoint attempt in, but was obviously "powered down", as my belayer astutely noted.
Now, it may be another two to three weeks before I'll get a chance to get on it again. I'll be working tomorrow and will be leaving a week from tomorrow to spend a week in the New River Gorge. Unless I can find a miracle Tuesday morning belayer, I'll probably try a power session Tuesday, LBC Friday, and climb at the beautiful NRG next Monday.
So close!
*Granted, I don't think the 80 degree temps and 70+ percent humidity helped much. Can't wait for the real fall weather to come.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 8, 2017 14:46:56 GMT -7
Nice, sounds like you're making rapid progress. Clearly the route is well within your ability. Maintain the psych!!!
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