MR Anxiety

[srossabi42]

I find that i get anxious before the MR grip during HB phases (maybe due to a fear of injury?). I enjoy and seek out pocket climbing, so I'm not sure why training pockets makes me nervous. Does anyone else have this problem?

The main reason I'd like to address this is because I feel this grip lags behind others during HB phases. From the beginning to end of a phase, I average about a 20 lb increase in resistance for MR, but 30 for other grips. Also, this article (http://www.stevemaischtraining.com/the-economics-of-training.html) suggests that one should work towards 0.8x body weight added for MR 25 mm pockets. my PRs for the MR shallow pocket on RPTC are -10 lbs for repeaters and +5 lbs for 10 s max hangs

[Chris W]

Check out the thread about The Psychological Strain of Hangboarding. I have had similar issues on grips I felt were "more important". If you haven't read The Rock Warrior's Way, it is pretty helpful with this type of thing as well.

[daustin]

The shallow pocket is much less than 25mm, I'd guess it's more in the range of ~14mm or so based on my memory, so don't fret too much about that.

I also tend to take a more conservative approach to overload with MR than other grips, sometimes staying at the same resistance for 2 successful workouts in a row instead of 1 and sometimes increasing resistance for the next workout by 2.5 lbs instead of 5 lbs. I wouldn't worry too much about comparing to other grips -- you should worry more about maximizing your gains for a given grip given factors specific to that grip, like tweakiness/injury potential and overall priority to your climbing goals.

If you injure yourself on the MR, it's likely going to halt your progress on all your grips. Worth it to take a conservative approach for tweakier grips for that reason, and over time they'll also become less tweaky.

[climber511]

Am I understanding this correctly? If I weigh say 190#( I do) I should be able to add 152# (190# times .8) to my MR hang - how many of you all can do this (appropriate to your weight)? That's 342# total weight on my MR fingers. That strikes me as dangerous (and hard) as heck. Or I am simply misreading that whole chart? The more general weight lifting numbers are tough but doable for me.

[daustin]

Sept 2, 2017 5:51:47 GMT -7 climber511 said:

Am I understanding this correctly? If I weigh say 190#( I do) I should be able to add 152# (190# times .8) to my MR hang - how many of you all can do this (appropriate to your weight)? That's 342# total weight on my MR fingers. That strikes me as dangerous (and hard) as heck. Or I am simply misreading that whole chart? The more general weight lifting numbers are tough but doable for me.

I think the only thing you're misreading is that you "should" be able to do 0.8x + BW. I think the chart is supposed to be a way to set benchmarks for difference performance levels, and my sense is the highest performance level for finger strength is not something most people can do.

IMO the chart should not be read without the salient disclaimer taken fully into account: "Note: The numbers in these tables come from personal opinion and asking around. I realize it is horribly unscientific but maybe once the idea of an assessment of strength for climbers gets out there, the data pool will expand and the the numbers will become more accurate."

[MarkAnderson]

Sept 2, 2017 5:51:47 GMT -7 climber511 said:

Am I understanding this correctly? If I weigh say 190#( I do) I should be able to add 152# (190# times .8) to my MR hang - how many of you all can do this (appropriate to your weight)? That's 342# total weight on my MR fingers. That strikes me as dangerous (and hard) as heck. Or I am simply misreading that whole chart? The more general weight lifting numbers are tough but doable for me.

You may be reading the table wrong, but I find it quite confusing.  It says "+0.8 x body weight", which to me, means 80% of body weight. However, that seems a little light (but for what? the column headers are in german so I don't know what they mean).  On the other hand, if you need to be able to hang 180% of your body, then you have serious footwork issues.  So I would argue that neither 80% nor 180% make any sense. 

(*I can do ~120% BW, 5 reps@ 7sec, on the smallest forge pockets; not sure how that compares to 25mm). 

[ericg]

As someone who does max hangs, I can guarantee it is BW+0.8BW. I think the table is just listing weight added and it is implied that your adding it to your body weight.

Mark if you can do repeaters @120% BW you might be able to do 180% max hangs on the same pockets. 25mm pockets would be "easy" for you.

[tetrault]

It seems to me that if the chart shows a "+" in front of the number, it is indeed 'body weight + fraction of body weight' added. If there is no "+", then it is 'fraction of body weight' only. As pointed out here though, this is single max hang, not repeaters.

This type of chart could be useful for some when also noting all of his "fine print", but could be psychologically harmful if used outside of the intended purpose.

I would agree with what daustin has said; seek maximum gains for a specific grip while remaining conservative to avoid injury. If you are honestly following the RPTM, your well documented training logs and planned out goals, etc. might be a better indicator of which grips need more attention. More attention, but not impossible, forced weight increases to try to match what is written on the chart. In the latter case, the chart might as well include a suggested d*ck length for a Fullsterkur.

[rsmith]

When you all started using MR 2 finger pockets, was there an uncomfortable feel to it that was borderline painful?

My left middle knuckle has a bit of a strain in it. It doesn't hurt at all to hangboard on pinches, crimps (of any size), or boulder. The day after a hard bouldering session it sometimes is a little stiff, but otherwise it's just one of those feelings that it likely will get better on it's own over time. If I sport climb and project, it's just fine.

I've gotten to where I am very strong on half crimp and close crimp grips, but my 2 finger MR is significantly behind but I also feel like I have to take off an absurd amount of weight to even hang from 2 fingers without a strange sensation that feels borderline dangerous. It's one of those things where if I take too much weight off it feels so easy that I am not even putting forth much effort but if it's not enough taken off then it definitely feels stressful. I am almost thinking it might be better to not train it at all until my knuckle pain improves a little.

Did anyone else experience this type of sensation starting off with 2 finger pockets?

[aikibujin]

How do you guys train on pockets?

I came across this article on TrainingBeta on how to avoid injury on pockets.
theclimbingdoctor.com/pocket-change-adapting-the-way-you-pull-on-pockets/

It's interesting because I arrived at similar conclusions independently. About two years ago I had a bit of "pocket trauma" while climbing at Shelf Road. The injury I had didn't prevent me from training other grips such as crimps and open hand, but anytime there was separation between my index and middle finger (such as a pocket) there was pain. So I buddy taped my IM fingers and climbed as usual. After the injury healed, I decided to start training pockets even though I don't use that grip very often. I quickly realized that it feels "safer" if I try not to curl my non-pulling fingers into my fist while pulling on a pocket, because I don't get that tearing feeling between the pulling fingers and the non-pulling fingers (for example: between the index finger and the middle finger in the MR pocket). But I can't pull as hard in this position. When I really try hard on a pocket, my non-pulling fingers will try to curl into my fist. So right or wrong, what I've been doing is that when I'm training for strength (with more weight), I use the so called "recommended technique" below to avoid injury. When I'm training more for endurance (with a lot less weight), I use the "injury-prone" technique as a way to strength my hand in that position.

[jonfrisby]

aikibujin, I am probably closer to the danger grip, but don't thumb lock my index finger. I've never had any lumbrical issues.

srossabi42 it makes sense that your pocket increases are smaller than other grips if your absolute strength on the grip is weaker. Like if you are adding 50% bw to a grip, a 30 pound increase is equivalent to a 20 pound increase to a grip you are not adding weight to. It's also possible that you are simply starting the pocket closer to your max and leaving less room for improvement. What's your season over season progress look like?

[srossabi42]

over the last four hangboard blocks i've been able to up my repeater PR on the MR grip by 10 lbs. its definitely possible that i am starting closer to my max. i may also have somewhat unrealistic expectations because of progress on other grips/ noob gains as i have only been training for a little over two years

[russ]

I have generally made steady improvements in MR over the course of every HB season (more consistent than any other grip in fact, pretty much always +5lbs for each workout), which may be due to it being one of my earliest grips in each workout. I do think its among the most risky though, as even neophytes can load a good amount of weight on MR and its tweakier than most of the other beginner grips. So I've had the highs of the MR (steady improvement within and over seasons to +55lbs on deeper RTPC pocket) and the lows (switched thereafter to the shallow RTPC MR pocket, got up to +30lbs and had a significant injury-- tore a lumbrical on one hand, then when that hand popped, the shock-loading of the other hand caused something to rip in the belly of my forearm). Took me ~1 year and a couple of HB cycles to fully heal it back up, and I've been much more careful on MR ever since, and share some of your anxiety

I think the key is 1- warm up properly, with an emphasis on the MR grip (I'll do several hangs on both MR pockets during warmup, starting with feet on, and won't start the workout until I feel comfortable hanging at BW for several sec from the shallow MR pocket)
2- load the grip carefully for each rep (ease into the hang gently, not shock-loading at the start of the rep)
3- Pay attention to the position of the rest of your fingers (I've independently come to decide to use the "recommended" finger position exclusively to protect my lumbricals). I had previously done the recommended for the first set and risky for the 2nd, but don't anymore.

[jrblack]

I'm a beginner at HB, but for the recommended beginner set up grips, MR is the only one that really worries me. Everything else feels safe.

I'm removing 55 lbs (of my 170lb body), and with MR I feel like my fingers are going to rip out of my hands.

[jeremie]

Nov 9, 2017 22:58:38 GMT -7 jrblack said:

I'm a beginner at HB, but for the recommended beginner set up grips, MR is the only one that really worries me. Everything else feels safe.

I'm removing 55 lbs (of my 170lb body), and with MR I feel like my fingers are going to rip out of my hands.

I felt like that at first too. I injured myself on a 2F pocket back in the spring, and have been worried about it since then. Training it on the hangboard made me a lot more comfortable with the grip. The first few workouts were tough, although it was really satisfying to see significant progress on the grip. Beat yeah, definitely take it easy. It it feels too tweaky then I would dial it back to prevent injury.