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Post by Chris W on Aug 23, 2017 20:25:12 GMT -7
Does anyone else feel psychologically strengthened or threatened based on their hangboarding results? Of all the phases, the strength phase seems to be the one I assign the most weight to (no pun intended). Mark, I know you wrote a post touching on this a while back (The Most Important Phase, or something like that).
If I go through a hangboard phase (or workout) and I set a new PB or all the grips feel easy, I'm in a good mood for the rest of the day and I feel like a total bada$$. If I don't match or set a new PB, I have the opposite feelings. Perhaps it's because I'm getting a little older every day. I don't think this is a healthy way to look at my training. It's easy to see that my climbing is continuing to improve, even if it doesn't show up on paper at the end of the hangboard phase.
How much weight should you assign to a strength phase?
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Post by korduroy on Aug 24, 2017 5:20:41 GMT -7
I try to remind myself that its not a perfect experiment. while it feels amazing when I crush my sets and set new PBs, the failures are easy to succumb to. I remind myself that this isn’t a perfect experiement: I didn’t eat exactly the same things; I didn’t sleep for the exact same amount of time; stress levels from work were different; temperatures and humidity weren’t exact; my rest days were different; etc. Once I think about that, I completely lose care in the failure and get psyched for the long-term gains im making
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Post by srossabi42 on Aug 24, 2017 6:46:51 GMT -7
i feel like this psychological entanglement makes hangboarding matter a bit more and to put in a bit of extra effort to ensure success. i also try to keep the dan john "for every 10 workouts you have..." in mind
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Post by jetjackson on Aug 24, 2017 6:54:17 GMT -7
Second what Korduroy mentioned. I can usually put down a bad session to not enough sleep.
It's the aggregate that matters anyway.
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Post by tetrault on Aug 24, 2017 7:27:04 GMT -7
How much "weight" should be tied to this phase? IMO, as with any phase; as much as possible. Where you put the weight, or how you judge success, may be the more important part. Though, it is very easy for me to slip into this thought process if I am not careful, letting the ego take over to provide shallow physiological rewards/punishments based on the weights you hung on a single workout, or phase, might not be the most efficient path towards long term improvement, or much else positive/beneficial, as you stated. Yes, the ultimate goal is to hang more weight off of your fingertips, but that goal is not reached by deciding, "today I want new PRs on every grip" and expecting it to happen if you "try hard". (Unless you are young and/or new to hangboard (or maybe a gifted athlete – no experience in this area)). And it is certainly not reached by being in a bad mood based on numbers in your training log. Assuming you are strict and disciplined with your training (including rests, nutrition, skin care, etc.), and know how to put all the effort required into these elements, then you have done all you can do leading up to the HB workout itself as far as setting yourself up for potential new PRs. This is something that you are in control of, to the extent possible given other aspects of your life, and should probably emphasize. I am sure you already are, but maybe find a way to incorporate it into your log to take some focus off your final #’s. I would argue that if a HB workout near the end of the phase felt easy, regardless of the numbers you ended up with, you picked incorrect weights (or maybe your bathroom scale is broken…) As the workout unfolds, the goal is to maximize the quality, not feel threatened about the potential outcome, or try to will your way into a new PR. “Performance” may be better judged based on how well you cleared your mind of distractions, did whatever you do to remain focused on hanging in-control with near-perfect form (deep breathing/visualization/staring at motivational posters etc.), and picked the correct weight to just barely go for the specified TUT (if near the end of the phase). This is all essentially within your control and may be a more beneficial “workout success” metric. All that said, how did Mark pull off this type of improvement on the closed-crimp over the years? Feb 2010 15 May 2010 20 Aug 2010 25 Jan 2011 25 May 2001 30 Sep 2011 30 Jan 2012 40 injured after this season, lotsa rehab Sep 2012 -10 Dec 2012 35 Mar 2013 40 Jun 2013 45 Sep 2013 45 Dec 2013 35 Switched to new Grip at start of season (RPTC), then again before 7th w/o (Campus Rung) Feb 2014 50 May 2014 55 didn't send Sep 2014 55 sent Dec 2014 60 didn't send (sent 55 prev)
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 24, 2017 9:59:14 GMT -7
Great OP! I've definitely experienced that, and continue to experience it to some degree. HBing is special because it's so easy to measure, the results are so black and white. If ARCing or LBing were as clear cut, we'd probably obsess over our performance in those phases just as much. Dave McCloud made a great point in "9 out of 10...", that climbers have an attitude that they're ALWAYS performing, even when they should be training. It's best not to confuse those two. Once you get stuck trying to perform all the time, there's no room to try new things, risk failing, etc. Plus you fall into the shame spiral if your "performance" goes poorly.
That said, I think there is a positive side to "performing all the time"-- it makes you good at performing. [Aside: A couple of my high school cross country teammates ran for the famed Univ of Oregon Cross Country team, and the guys on that team treated every serious workout (generally any interval workouts) like a race. They prepared like it was a race, they wore racing flats, etc.] When we're on the rock, we kinda are performing all the time, so it's good to have a lot of practice. Still, you need to know how to balance training and performing.
Anyway, how to fix? Lately I've had good success with focusing my joy/self-loathing more on my effort than the actual outcome. I KNOW when I've mailed it in for a set, and when I tried my very best. If I tried hard, but still failed, I make a note of that on my log and TRY to remember over the next couple days. And vice versa. Trying hard is also something that requires practice, and HBing is the perfect environment to practice it.
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Post by daustin on Aug 24, 2017 13:43:09 GMT -7
For me, I feel good about myself if I'm just able to follow through on my training plan and not miss workouts. As others have said, internal and external conditions vary from session to session, so I know I'm not going to always hit a new PR. But so long as I actually show up, I know that I'll get better in the long-term and probably in the short-term too.
IMO there's a bigger delta between "no training stimulus" and "suboptimal training stimulus" than there is between "suboptimal training stimulus" and "optimal training stimulus". I'm happy to shoot for suboptimal and recognize that some days I'll get lucky and it will feel optimal. As long as I'm staying out of the "no training" bucket, that's success for me.
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Post by Chris W on Aug 24, 2017 20:23:52 GMT -7
Thanks guys, lots of great feedback and insight! I like the idea of focusing on the effort, but may have to tweak that a little. I work REALLY HARD all the time, and it's very rare for me to "punt". I may have to focus on staying positive and acknowledging the REALLY HARD work I'm doing as a success in itself.
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Post by Chris W on Aug 29, 2017 1:51:56 GMT -7
I think the point about hangboarding being easy to measure is an important one. That's probably why I feel more "lost" during a limit boulder session than during a campus session.
I guess the other thing is that I'm frequently hearing about how it's harder to gain strength as you age, as well as how it takes longer to gain strength than other adaptations. I'm 34 years old. I don't want to be past my prime. I have a lot of gains I want to make, and I'm not climbing as hard as I want to yet. It's hard not to feel a bit old, even at 34, when preteen kids are crushing rock around the globe.
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Post by climber511 on Aug 29, 2017 6:56:57 GMT -7
I think the point about hangboarding being easy to measure is an important one. That's probably why I feel more "lost" during a limit boulder session than during a campus session. I guess the other thing is that I'm frequently hearing about how it's harder to gain strength as you age, as well as how it takes longer to gain strength than other adaptations. I'm 34 years old. I don't want to be past my prime. I have a lot of gains I want to make, and I'm not climbing as hard as I want to yet. It's hard not to feel a bit old, even at 34, when preteen kids are crushing rock around the globe. I was 34 when I first started rock climbing (1983). I had been lifting weights regularly since 1959 (age 11) and competing in various activities from Power Lifting to, springboard diving, motorcycle racing, running - biking, swimming, and triathlons competitively for years. I climbed almost exclusively trad but some sport (there wasn't all that much sport climbing close to me back then) - there were no climbing walls available to me back then either - and no real knowledge of climbing specific training.. In 1985 or 86 I did the highest rated number climb of my career - a 12b/c at New River - one of maybe 25 or so total sport routes I did at that time period. My training consisted of climbing on the weekends and lifting and running or biking through the week with things like wrist curls - finger curls - and sledge hammer levering my primary hand strength work back then. As far as the ability to gain pure strength - my experience was that I was able to increase pure strength well into my early 40s (weightlifting is an easily measurable way to test for gains in pure strength). Other attributes such as speed, explosiveness, balance, and flexibility were the things I was unable to keep at the levels of my youth as time went on. Endurance at speed (such as running) peaked around 35 - 40 (or earlier) but endurance at slower speed (walking or hiking) held on somewhat longer. I maintained a high proportion of my strength well into my 50s but in my early 60s the slide really began as strength slowly declined regardless of my efforts. There has been a level of loss of movement skill that has affected my climbing as much if not more than the pure strength loss. I believe the thing that held me back the most was the number of things I wanted to do athletically throughout my life - if I had only climbed I might have done much better. I spent large periods of time racing motorcycles, doing Highland Games, Olympic Lifting, Strongman comps, Grip Strength competitions and more. I never quit climbing but spent many weekends doing other things - in between I climbed. I wouldn't take any of it back but it no doubt held me back in my climbing. I also spent time training for Alpine or bigger mountains that took training time away from pure rock climbing (Alaska - South America - Nepal). So long story short is that I truly believe one can continue to make strength gains throughout your 30s and well into your early 40s. But the BIG elephant in the room that will hold one back is injury - slow and steady wins the race is never more true than when training hard as you age. The more specialized the sport the more narrow the training will be and the more focused the stresses will be - be careful out there.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 29, 2017 11:20:44 GMT -7
... I'm frequently hearing about how it's harder to gain strength as you age, as well as how it takes longer to gain strength than other adaptations... That's been on my mind a lot over the last few months, since I turned 40. In my recent training sessions I've felt like I'm doing well if I approach my previous PRs. It's a pretty shitty attitude that is going to hold me back if I don't snap out of it, haha. ...I'm 34 years old. I don't want to be past my prime... Dude, you've got plenty of time. You're still quite young. I've improved 3 letter grades since I turned 34, accompanied by ridiculous gains on paper (and despite the worst finger injury of my career). I would also argue I had a lot less untapped potential than you do, both in terms of the amount time/effort each of us had put into training as of age 34, and in terms of the asymptotic nature of the grade scale. Still, don't squander the next few years (from a training perspective), because it will get harder to make gains at some (distant) point.
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Post by climber511 on Aug 29, 2017 11:47:58 GMT -7
One of the things that is so difficult as you age is to maintain a positive attitude that progress is possible still. I have found that instead of attacking it head on sometimes I am better off to kind of "sneak up on" progress with a little added variety in my forearm and finger training.
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Post by jetjackson on Aug 29, 2017 16:09:26 GMT -7
Dude, you've got plenty of time. You're still quite young. I've improved 3 letter grades since I turned 34, accompanied by ridiculous gains on paper (and despite the worst finger injury of my career). I would also argue I had a lot less untapped potential than you do, both in terms of the amount time/effort each of us had put into training as of age 34, and in terms of the asymptotic nature of the grade scale. Still, don't squander the next few years (from a training perspective), because it will get harder to make gains at some (distant) point. This is what I like to hear. 33 years old here, and really only started climbing seriously at 30 - I'm keen to see what I. as a 'late starter' can achieve. There are some great examples out there - Lee Sheftel for example. gripped.com/articles/older-stronger-harder/ - this article. Chuck Odette, who climbed his first 5.12 at age 34, and his first 5.14 at 44. As per climber 511, biggest thing for me is to avoid overuse injuries. I've invested in a few visits to a good sport physio recently, and they pointed out a few imbalances etc. that I'm working on. The benefit of being older is that you know how to play the long game. Certainly that's my strength, I was friends with my wife for 2 years before we got together.
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Post by Chris W on Aug 29, 2017 20:03:58 GMT -7
Thanks guys. Lots of good feedback. Starting later definitely allowed me to be smarter. Also, having an income means I get to build my own climbing wall and I can replace my rope when it gets tattered, even if I have to work an extra shift to do so. If I had started when I was a young teenager, for many reasons, I don't think I would be still climbing. I can elaborate more on that later.
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Post by madisonchoss on Sept 15, 2017 19:17:02 GMT -7
Think about how many things need to come together for optimal climbing performance: well rested, good skin, good sleep, positive attitude, ideal warmup, etc etc etc. When you schedule your hangboard phase, what are the chances that all these are going to align on the single day (or even couple of days) that you get to the point that you're going to try to match or exceed your PB? If you're within 5-10% I'd say you for sure benefited from the strength phase.
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