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Post by daustin on May 20, 2017 15:51:58 GMT -7
Of course, the idiot in question is me This may be a bit of a long post, but ultimately I'm looking for any advice, guidance, tips, suggestions, etc. from all the expert home wall builders that frequent this site.
My situation: my wife and I are expecting our first child in December. I live ~30 mins away from the nearest climbing gym, and ~1 hr from the nearest outdoor climbing of any sort, and more like ~3 hrs from the nearest good outdoor climbing. So, I'm trying to plan for a world in the near future where I probably will not be doing a whole lot of climbing outside what's available in the comfort of my home. I currently have a hangboard in the garage, but due to space constraints, I can't put a woody in the garage.
That said, I do have a relatively spacious backyard (for living in a city) and have gotten my wife's approval to build a home wall so long as it's not too huge or ugly. I think I'd like to build a hybrid moonboard, like the one Ted built -- I like the idea of having a library of pre-set problems via the MB, but would also need some larger, comfier holds for PE and maybe even ARC training (the idea of ARCing on a 40-degree wall makes me pumped just thinking about it).
There are a few factors that will make it not as easy as it could be to put a home wall in the backyard:
- It has to be free-standing. I can't anchor it to any structure, and my backyard is concrete slabs on top of sand, so I don't think I can anchor into the ground either
- It has to be able to withstand a fairly extreme marine environment. I live about 500 feet away from the Pacific Ocean, and there is a ton of salty fog just about every day
- Building stuff is not a strength of mine. Like, at all
In an ideal world, I would love to have basically the same exact wall that climbnkev has: an adjustable, free-standing wall with a nice gutter system. But, especially because of bullet #3, I don't think it would be smart to swing for the fences and try something so complex for my first-ever home wall build. In my searches on the internet for examples of free-standing outdoor home walls, I came across this; a moonboard built inside a Tuff Shed: jasonhalladay.blogspot.com/2017/01/swole-hole-moonboard-shed.html This seems very attractive to me. It seems like it addresses all three bullets above, and would also meet my wife's criterion of not being too ugly. The obvious downside is cost, but this isn't a dealbreaker for me. I can even do some rationalization that the savings from not having an annual membership at the local gym will eventually offset the added cost of getting an "off the shelf" shed. The other downside is that it seems like this would technically require a permit, as it's large enough to not be exempt from the permitting process (100 sq ft is the cutoff). I need to do more research before I know how much of a downside this really is...
So for now, my question is: what would you do if you were in my situation (including the lack of building skills)? Any downsides to the Tuff Shed approach other than cost that I'm overlooking? Anyone know any climber/builders in the Bay Area that'd be keen to help with a project like this (and fairly compensated of course)?
I'll keep this threaded updated I go down the home wall rabbit hole, but in the meantime would really appreciate any input! Thanks much in advance.
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Post by MarkAnderson on May 22, 2017 15:01:36 GMT -7
Congratulations! Life changing for sure, but for the better IME.
A few thoughts: -You can definitely anchor it to concrete, and I would say that would be easier and superior to anchoring it to bare ground. Whether you are permitted to anchor it to concrete may be the real question. The best way to anchor to concrete is to drill into the slab and use mechanical anchors (like those used for sport climbing). Are you allowed to drill holes in the slab? These could be filled later in theory. -Salty fog sounds like the worst case scenario. Anyone know if stainless steel bolts/t-nuts will stand up to that? -If you like your wall and use it, it can be a huge cost savings. I built the Lazy H in 2008, so for nine years I've saved the cost of a gym membership. Earth Treks Golden is $79/month for an individual, so that's about $8500 saved so far (or $6500 if you just count the difference between an individual and family membership). I think it would be worth it even if you had to pay someone else to build it. -Hard to put a price on convenience, especially with a newborn.
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ericg
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by ericg on May 22, 2017 19:26:26 GMT -7
Congrats! I have a 4 months old and also live 30 mins away from the closest gym. I told my wife that having a home wall was a prerequisite to having kids and I can't see how I would get any consistent climbing in without it. I built my wall in our basement but also considered the outdoor/shed approach. The main reason I went with the basement is it has climate control (heat/ac) however the ceilings are only 8ft so my wall is 45. Another reason for the basement wall is that we live on a hill so installing any shed or free standing wall would have required some landscaping. I'm still considering this option for the future because ideally I would have a taller less steep wall.
Personally, if I was in your situation I would go the shed route, actually it is really the only option. I don't know much about salty fog but it seems like pretty poor conditions. With a shed you could run an extension cord and have heat/ac depending on the season, although the shed might not be have installation the area should be pretty small. You will miss enough sessions due to having a newborn, you don't want to miss sessions for other reasons.
I'm conflicted about the Moonboard. Personally, my core strength/technique has really improved using small footchips (as mentioned in one of Marks old blog) on a 45, and this improvement has helped me send a couple of old projects quickly. I have only climbed on a Moodboard once but it didn't require this. Another advantage to having a home wall is that you can set problems based on your project, not mimic routes, but if your project has a pinch crux you can set lots of pinch problems or slopers etc. I don't have a problem coming up with limit problems, can pretty much come up with them faster than I can send them. It is also useful to have people over and get everyone to set 5-10 problems...Anyway ideally I think you would have both 40 degree moon board and a different board that is ~20 degrees or an adjustable board but I don't think that would fit in the shed and it isn't worth sacrificing the shed in order to build an adjustable board.
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Post by climbnkev on May 22, 2017 20:58:15 GMT -7
Hi Daustin, Let's talk about the garage and why you don't think it will work. I think the Halladay Moonboard is a pretty nice set-up but I would not want to limit myself to only a 40 degree wall unless absolutely necessary. What makes the garage an unworkable solution? What about a ceiling mounted board with a winch that allows you to drop it down to climb and put it away when finished?
As for the salty fog, the combination of SS bolts and T nuts would be pretty impervious. Yes they may corrode over time, but you could always replace them as necessary. The big key is keeping the wall dry with some sort of roof.
If you have the capital to build a outbuilding(shed), what would be your max size? Are there height restrictions in your neighborhood? What is your budget for the build-out?
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Post by Chris W on May 23, 2017 3:32:23 GMT -7
Daustin
1) I have lots of experience climbing and training with kids. I train very hard and don't miss sessions. If you have any kid specific questions, let me know and I'll help if I can. Having a home wall is super helpful.
2) I've built several home walls. First was a small 8' x 4' free standing wall in an appartment, followed by a basement wall (same appartment) with 7 foot ceilings, followed by a garage wall (townhouse) followed by my current training facility in "The Barn" where I live now. The barn is here to stay. The most vital part of my wall is 8 feet wide, 35 degrees overhanging, and 10 feet from floor to highest point. It goes higher, but I don't use the higher parts much. The RCTM didn't come out until after I had moved into my house (and barn).
3) I've been building things since I was way too young to be abusing my fathers power tools, but a home wall isn't too complicated. It would be really helpful to have a (cordless) circular saw, drill (and impact driver, if you can get it), tape measure, and square measure (I have a 4 foot T square I use often). I think Metolius has some nice information about building walls on their website.
4) If you can't use the garage (you really can't use it?), I like Mark's idea of bolting into the concrete slab. I don't have any experience with stainless steel in that setting. I've started re-bolting some climbs at home, and in my research it looks like stainless steel is not a good option for bolting in that setting, but I'm not sure there is a better option. I don't think they even make bolts and t-nuts in titanium, plus I assume it would be pretty expensive.
5) Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
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Post by daustin on May 23, 2017 8:52:43 GMT -7
Thanks everyone! Super helpful. I'm going to be super busy over the next few days but I'll come back with some more info about the garage -- maybe I'm dismissing it too quickly...
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Post by climbnkev on May 23, 2017 20:25:58 GMT -7
I don't have any experience with stainless steel in that setting. I've started re-bolting some climbs at home, and in my research it looks like stainless steel is not a good option for bolting in that setting, but I'm not sure there is a better option. I don't think they even make bolts and t-nuts in titanium, plus I assume it would be pretty expensive. While I agree that for bolting cliffs in seaside locations SS might not be the best choice, it is the industry standard for construction in marine environments of decks, piers and wharves. As long as the wall structure is covered I don't think I would use any more than zinc plated bolts and T-nuts personally. Remember we are not talking anything structural here, and you can monitor the condition of the bolts over time. Stainless galls easily and cross threading could be a real problem.
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Post by daustin on Jun 16, 2017 11:37:27 GMT -7
Hi Daustin, Let's talk about the garage and why you don't think it will work. I think the Halladay Moonboard is a pretty nice set-up but I would not want to limit myself to only a 40 degree wall unless absolutely necessary. What makes the garage an unworkable solution? What about a ceiling mounted board with a winch that allows you to drop it down to climb and put it away when finished? As for the salty fog, the combination of SS bolts and T nuts would be pretty impervious. Yes they may corrode over time, but you could always replace them as necessary. The big key is keeping the wall dry with some sort of roof. If you have the capital to build a outbuilding(shed), what would be your max size? Are there height restrictions in your neighborhood? What is your budget for the build-out? OK I'm back after a few weeks of craziness. So first, the garage. The problem is that our garage is really a hybrid garage/basement, and includes all our water & heating appliances/piping. This really eats into the useable area, and doesn't leave much space left over for anything but some shelves along the side and space for the car. I measured the height of the garage as well, and I actually forget what the measurement was -- either 8 or 9 ft -- but not tall enough for a standard moonboard and probably wouldn't want a wall angled less than 40* b/c of height. I do have the capital for an outbuilding/accessory shed. From reading local planning codes, it seems like there's an area restriction for sheds, but not a height restriction. The area restriction is anything less than 100 sqft doesn't require a permit. If I were to copy the Halladay Moonboard, it would technically require a permit as the TuffShed dimensions were 10' x 12'. That said, I'm not too worried about inspections for a shed that's within 20 sqft of the cutoff, so I probably wouldn't go to great lengths to try to squeeze it into a 100 sqft shed.
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Post by tetrault on Jun 16, 2017 16:30:22 GMT -7
Does over 100sq ft require a building permit or a zoning permit?
edit - specifically asking Daustin. If it is only a zoning permit, I was going to suggest to him that he goes wider with the shed to shoot for at least 12' interior dimension.
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Post by climber511 on Jun 16, 2017 19:02:28 GMT -7
Does over 100sq ft require a building permit or a zoning permit? It depends on local ordinances in the town where you live. Check with local government to be sure.
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Post by climbnkev on Jun 16, 2017 21:40:24 GMT -7
Ok so if the garage is out I would ask what you see as the benefit to having your wall in a tiny shed? For Jason the advantage is winter heating, but that's not really necessary in Nor Cal. So if your case the primary motivator would be protection from rain I would assume. So why not build a 10x10 pergola with a sloped roof on the back side of the wall which extends out of the covered area 4'. Now you have 6' of covered area in front of the wall and 2' overhanging on each side. Set the beams of the pergola at 11' so you can hang the top of the wall from them. You can use tarps to enclose the sides during the winter months. I think this would be much more usable than a shed that would cook in the sun for much of the year. I can help you design the structure if your interested.
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Post by daustin on Jun 19, 2017 12:27:28 GMT -7
The thing I worry most about is the salty fog. I'm worried that any hardware left exposed (including t-nuts) would corrode pretty rapidly unless I went for SS. It's true that the shed might get hot in the sun, but fortunately for me, my climate is pretty mild -- rarely gets much above 70* and I'd estimate that 80% of the year falls into the 50-65* range. Protection from rain is also important but it's the marine fog that makes me think a shed would be preferable to a pergola. I suppose I could go for a pergola and use zinc plated t-nuts, but I'd be worried that I'd have to replace them pretty regularly which seems like it would be a huge hassle. What do you think? Thanks again for helping me think some of this through!
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Post by daustin on Aug 21, 2017 12:27:48 GMT -7
Starting to get estimates on different shed options. TuffShed is the obvious choice but there are some local contractors that specialize in sheds that I want to suss out.
I'm also debating wall angle. Standard MB angle of 40* would be fine, but I'm thinking of maybe reducing the angle slightly to 37* or 35* to facilitate ARC and PE exercises (on the bigger holds I'll be putting on the offset t-nut grid). This would of course require a slightly taller shed, but would also decrease the horizontal distance of the board, which would be nice in terms of feeling less cramped in a small shed.
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Post by climbnkev on Aug 22, 2017 12:08:21 GMT -7
I've already commented on the shed decision, but I would check with your local Tough Shed dealer and ask for references before using them. The guys we have in Denver are hacks and I wouldn't ever buy one personally ( and my company is a Tough Shed dealer).
For the wall I think changing the angle 3-5 degrees will have next to no effect on the wall. Bigger questions are are you fit enough to ARC on 30+ degree terrain. The Hybrid Moonboard spacing leaves few holes for jugs except across the bottom and top so you will mostly be doing laps. Even at 20 degrees I can only encorporate a few Moon holds into ARC sessions. If possible I would build a 12x12 wall as in my experience it climbs so much better than a 8x12 wall.
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Post by daustin on Aug 22, 2017 12:30:13 GMT -7
Thanks Kevin climbnkev. Just on the shed vs. pergola -- did you see my previous post about it? My main motivation for shed is not temperature or rain, but fog/dampness. I live right next to the beach in NorCal and we get daily doses of dense marine fog. I'm guessing this would not be an issue if using treated wood and stainless hardware for the framing, but I'd be worried that the bolts and t-nuts would rust out really quickly and constantly having to change them would be a big hassle. But maybe I'm overthinking it? There's also an element of aesthetics -- the wife likes the idea of the climbing wall being out of sight in a shed, I might have to do a little grass roots campaigning for a pergola if I decided to go in that direction =D ARCing on a 30+ will definitely take time, but ultimately I'm more interested in focusing on strength & power so I'm OK with making a tradeoff for suboptimal ARC terrain. Regarding sizing, another factor I'm learning more about is permitting. I'd like to avoid going through the city permitting process for reasons that ultimately boil down to time, which means my max dimensions for a shed are 10x10. If I take the angle back to 35 or 30 instead of 40, I could still squeeze a MB in. Would it be cramped? Yes, but again it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make if it means I can actually get this built before the baby comes... I also just discovered that TuffShed requires direct access to the backyard, apparently their insurance doesn't allow them to build if they have to access the backyard through a living area. This means I can't use TuffShed for the build since you can only access the backyard through our house. I could still buy the kit/materials for the shed from TuffShed and hire an independent contractor for the actual build... Ugh
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