The final thing I wonder about, is at the micro level, what happens to the muscle fibers that became over fatigued in the first 3
sets reps. What do they *do* if anything during the subsequent reps? This is, I think what the article means by recruitment. If their energy systems are failed and they cannot contribute (much or at all?) to the contraction then other fibers must be contributing more-- otherwise the contraction would be impossible, and if some fibers have failed then others must not have been fully utilized if you continue to perform contractions. The article says something about different fiber types contributing, but whether that is true or not seems to matter less than the idea that some of the fibers that were key in the early reps must have become too fatigued to fully contribute in the later reps. Or, every rep might be using all fibers equally and they are just all delivering partially to the contraction, offering less and less strength each time? This seems unlikely?
You brought up some very interesting things, maybe it is worth experimenting a little with this. I don't pretend to know how muscle work at all, so all this talk on what's happening on the micro level is beyond me. But one thought did occur to me: on the macro level, if a muscle is already fatigued, by asking the same muscle to perform with less and less weight, is it possible that we are pushing it too hard and overstressing it? Of course, it's all speculation on my part.
I think it might be worth experimenting as well. So I decided to try a drop set workout today. I also measured my forearms with a tailors measuring tape but have not yet tried the water displacement strategy. I will try that tomorrow to get a "pre" measurement for the cycle. I am super tired right now so I will try to describe it as best I can on my limited energy.
Warm up with light weight hangs on different edges, shoulder rotations, a few push ups, start some inspiring music.
Two short warm up sets of repeaters. Throughout I did a repeater standard 3-4 min rest between sets (which apparently is not enough rest after a few dropsets).
0. Repeaters. Warm up on large open edge Forge; +40 lbs. 3X12 seconds with 3 second rests.
0. Repeaters. Semi crimp, forge, innermost part. +0 lbs. 3X12 seconds with 3 second rests
Dropsets:
1. Forge VDER. +0 lbs. 6 reps, ~6seconds each, start wide, increment each hang inwards to largest section.
2. RPTC. +20 lbs. 6X6sec reps bottom row, 4X6sec reps upper, then 2X2secs (lol).
3. RPTC. +40 lbs. 3X6 bottom row, 3X5 top row, 2X2 (lol)
4. RPTC. +40 lbs. 3X6 bottom row, 4X5 top row, 2X2
Pinch dropsets (experiment)
1. RPTC pinch. 6X6, deteriorating to 2X2? while edging higher and over the lip on the pinch as needed.
2. Forge pinch (medium). 6X6 deteriorating to 2X2 while edging higher on the pinch (over the lip)
Final edge dropsets completely fell apart due to cumulative fatigue.
1. RPTC +20 lbs. 3X6 bottom, then just failed to hang for more than a second or two all the way across the top.
2. RPTC +0 lbs. 3X6 on bottom, then again, just failed out of the top. crazy tired.
3. RPTC +0 and -? (with feet on holds) 1 lower hang, then 6X6 second hangs across the top, with surprisingly much weight on feet while pumping out holding onto good edges. lol
The very last set was good-- I felt very tired but I was determined to get decent TUT despite the fact that I had to take away a lot of weight.
5 hours later I can say that I feel some forearm fatigue-- similar to after a good day of outdoor climbing but more localized. If I flex and press on the muscle the most sore section is down the center of the palm side, focused on the middle 50% between the wrist and elbow.
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Next day reflections.
Forearms are more sore this morning, but in a good way. Some finger and elbow aches, though elbows were not much bothered by this and fingers feel better than they normally do after a day of bouldering.
I am happy with how the workout went but I am far from happy with the design-- I am just starting to figure out what might make a good set of starting weights, #reps per set, and rest periods between sets. Also, I would like to identify the most basic grip set. The semi crimp seems like the most fundamental, after which I think some type of half crimp would be good, and then a pinch. But I did not want to include the half crimp in case it would bother my elbows.
Questions I have:
What should the goal of the exercise set be?
Is it to create the most extensively complete metabolic stress across the widest cross section of fibers in the loaded muscle? (I am guessing this would be good?)
Or the highest peak of metabolic stress?
That question starts from the premise that metabolic stress unequally distributed within the muscle, but is this the case?
Do we want to optimize the extent or the intensity of this stress? (extent higher priority?)
Is cumulative fatigue a benefit to this training (meaning we get to target intensities for the muscles earlier or easier), or is it a detriment that prevents us from reestablishing the same level of metabolic stress? I am guessing the second?
Workout options:
How intense should the first hang be?
What is the right amount of rest between reps? (I was minimizing this to about 1 second)
What is the right size of difficulty drop between reps?
Do you want to vary the above?
If so, according to what criteria?
How many sets, and how many workouts per day are optimal?
What role does pre-fatigue of muscles play in spurring adaptations to spur more muscle growth?
On the last question I am considering models from manual labor where the worker puts in a full 8 hour day, and thus is probably repeating a “workout” many times during the day and doing work while already partly tired. Is this junk-- or is this part of how the body gets the signal that more muscle is needed?
Overall-- is the goal to create several instances where the body creates signals to the response system that it has reached high metabolic stress levels that are both extensive and intense and that the only prescription is more cow bell? (or muscle tissue)
Should the sets and workouts be, within a day, designed to maximize the extent of the metabolic stress, within each set, and across those sets? If so, this might imply that the climber warm ups, seeks the most intense versions of the drop sets, and then after some rest, revisits them at lower weights, but with the goal to make the muscles obtain the same intense “roasted” feeling of being both feeling of being tired and worked at the same time.
Final thought-- Arnold mentioned that after the conclusion of the dropset you should focus your attention on the muscles that you had just exhausted and flex them and try to isometrically work them to inspire even greater exhaustion. Whether that has any benefit or not it is interesting that after a good drop set you can really feel the particular muscles that were most engaged.
hey Kader-- that is a really good point, and that might be correct. What I was wondering was if there is an important difference between hypertrophy in the forearms generally and hypertrophy for the specific muscles used on particular climbing grips. Folks who train grip training as a weightlifting exercise can have big forearms generally but perhaps not in the ways that are most adaptive for climbing?