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Post by aikibujin on Apr 19, 2017 16:51:42 GMT -7
But, sort of going along with the conversation in your "What is good technique" thread, I am still hoping there is more that can be learned or gained out of watching video. I do think there is something that can be gained from a video like this. Even though both climbers used a fairly similar sequence, there are still subtle differences as you've noted in your own analysis. While I think it's hard to simply look at the differences and say which climber is using better technique, one of the climbers can look at the video and try using the other climber's sequence next time. By experimenting and experiencing the difference, the climber can determine which is the better technique. Watching the video again, I also noticed the two climbers have very different stances for placing and clipping gear. That can be another lesson to learn, which climber is using the better stance? What would be needed for more in-depth analysis? Is it more experience and knowledge? How can one gain this knowledge? That's a good question and I don't know the answer. I've been listening to a lot of training podcast lately, and I hear about climbers sending video of them climbing to their coach/trainer and get good feedback on technique. If we assume that's true, then I guess some of the climbing coaches/trainers are able to perform some pretty in-depth analysis. Maybe this ability comes from experience, from coaching and watching many different climbers over the years, they can build this knowledge base of good technique. Maybe it's an inherent talent of a particular coach/trainer. I'll say it's not something that everyone knows how to do. I spent ten years in martial arts (Aikido if you haven't guessed), 4 of those years I taught as an assistant instructor to my sensei. To teach a technique, you need to be able to break down the movement into components: angle of your arm, direction of the force, timing of a movement, palm up vs. palm down, and then you need to be able to verbalize this information. Not everyone is good at this. Some people are really good at doing something, but if you ask them how they did it, they have no idea. I may not be the best martial artist, but I was a pretty good teacher because I'm good at analyzing a technique, figuring out what exactly make it work, and explaining it to others. And by analyzing and teaching others, it was also helping myself improve. So I wanted to take this approach to climbing. But when I tried to analyze climbing technique, the many different ways to use handholds and footholds, use body position, sequence a route, and different characteristics of the individual climbers, all these factors create an infinite number of possibilities for a particular route. And unlike martial arts, there isn't just one right way to do a move in climbing. I was overwhelmed. I can't look at someone climb and tell you if they're using good technique or not. I can't look at two different sequences and tell if one is better than the other, without actually trying the sequence myself. It's possible that I just haven't watched and analyzed enough people climb to develop the knowledge, that's why I've been spending a lot of time hiding in my basement, eating ice cream and watching climbing videos. But it's also possible I just don't have that inherent understanding of what good technique looks like.
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Post by tetrault on Apr 20, 2017 17:56:01 GMT -7
one of the climbers can look at the video and try using the other climber's sequence next time. By experimenting and experiencing the difference, the climber can determine which is the better technique. Watching the video again, I also noticed the two climbers have very different stances for placing and clipping gear. That can be another lesson to learn, which climber is using the better stance? Good points. Thank you. Has anyone on here done this? I would be very curious to hear if it was worth it, and what type of feedback was given. I do agree with you that it is overwhelming and that there is not just one right way, but there are certainly ways that would theoretically use less forearm strength and ways that would use more. Though, even if a movement "looked" efficient on video by this definition, I imagine a climber could be unnecessarily overgripping, and therefore not actually being efficient with their forearm strength usage.
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Post by MarkAnderson on May 2, 2017 9:14:36 GMT -7
Has anyone on here done this? I would be very curious to hear if it was worth it, and what type of feedback was given. I've been on the receiving end of this, and I would say it's about 10% as useful as being in the same room. The problem is that you really need the feedback to be near-instantaneous to really be helpful. Hearing 5 days later that you should have backstepped a particular move isn't very productive. The coach can get a general sense of bad movement habits or techniques that have been neglected, but ideally you could make corrections and iterate in real-time. I could see it working a bit better if it was live feed, so the coach could watch and provide real-time feedback, watch the student try it again, and so on. Even then, its way better if the coach can try the move, figure out the best way to do it, demonstrate, etc, rather than trying to guess what the terrain is like based on a pixelated 2D image.
Another area where it could be useful would be reviewing video of an actual project, where the coach could provide some ideas and the climber could go back to the project and try it again. Still, the cycle time on that would be glacial compared to being there in person. And the coach is still just guessing about the terrain and best way to climb it.
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Post by tetrault on May 10, 2017 17:15:02 GMT -7
Thanks for the info.
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Post by aikibujin on May 18, 2017 4:44:02 GMT -7
Proof that ice cream works!
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Post by tetrault on May 18, 2017 14:57:49 GMT -7
Interesting rock and interesting rope management! Though, one could argue it was a synergistic effect of the claimed "medicinal pizza" and ice cream. The ice cream alone may be of little benefit.
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Post by ehowell on Jun 15, 2017 4:44:15 GMT -7
Does anyone have any good recommendations for video analysis freeware for Mac?
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Post by climber511 on Jun 15, 2017 7:53:50 GMT -7
Not sure how powerful or what all features you're looking for. I coach the throws (shot putt and discus). I use HUDL (a free app) on my I Pad for controllable slow motion. Take the video with the camera and open it in HUDL. There's no doubt others too depending on what you want it to do. Even the regular slow motion is pretty good.
I used to use a Program called Kinovea which also worked fine for my purposes. (on my PC) but there be a Mac version too?
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Post by ehowell on Jun 15, 2017 13:07:18 GMT -7
Not sure how powerful or what all features you're looking for. I coach the throws (shot putt and discus). I use HUDL (a free app) on my I Pad for controllable slow motion. Take the video with the camera and open it in HUDL. There's no doubt others too depending on what you want it to do. Even the regular slow motion is pretty good. I used to use a Program called Kinovea which also worked fine for my purposes. (on my PC) but there be a Mac version too? Thanks. I tried to get Kinovea but it's not available for Mac. I'll give HUDL a try.
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Post by ehowell on Jun 16, 2017 5:51:08 GMT -7
HUDL seems quite glitchy. I can't get any videos to load from Iphone or Ipad. Any other suggestions out there?
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Post by climber511 on Jun 16, 2017 19:04:59 GMT -7
Humm - it works just fine on my I Pad - but I'm like the anti geek - my son installed it for me and I just barely know know to use it. Maybe visit one of the tech forums and ask there?
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