Jugs strength

[kader]

Hi,

I came across this yesterday and found this was extremely interesting

boulderingathenscounty.blogspot.jp/2015/07/cultivating-deep-hold-fitness.html?m=1

Basically the guy advocates specific training for jugs strentgh because of the anatomical structure of finger flexors.

Looking at his training tools for jugs, i think it would be more effective to train using a lapis rolly bar (or at least with a wrist roller)

What do you guys think?

[tedwelser]

I would say that the big downside of the "maxi pull" protocol described in that article is the extremely high TUT that it requires.  5-7 45 second reps, with just 15 seconds rest in between and then doing 3 sets is a great deal of hanging.  If you have elbow tendonosis or other overuse injuries it could be a bit too much hanging around. 

Now, I think there are a lot of upsides, which I outline in the article, not the least of which is getting to know how to manage high levels of pump, and learning where your true limits are.  Also, you get used to managing effort between different parts of your hand/fingers in a way that is exactly analogous to what you need to do on deep holds on real routes.  

When I was younger the main way that I cultivated deep hold endurance was on the rock at the Red and New, and I would just try to rest my way up the steep things even if it took 30 or 40 min for one pitch.  That will get you a lot of time under tension.   

I did a bunch of courses of hangs on the maxi pull about a year and a half ago.  I have not done any recently because I tend not to get pumped on the routes I climb these days.  I currently have more of an issue pulling hard moves not getting endurance tired.  So think once I get my bouldering power sorted I might have to refresh my deep hold endurance as I move onto harder routes.  

I will say that however you decide to cultivate your deep hold endurance, once you have it, it feels almost like magic.  

[climber511]

Endurance (on holds big or small but big is worse I think) is my problem - I can make a hard move or three but any more than that and I'm pretty much done for.  That's going to be my focus for the foreseeable future.   

[jetjackson]

Bit hard to make any sort of constructive criticism now that the article's author has chimed in ^

I wouldn't call it 'jugs strength' - I think that's a misinterpretation of what Ted is getting at - well, at least how I see it anyway.

My interpretation, and jump in here Ted if I'm wrong, is that you're trying to hang kind of on the lip of the top of your palm, and that the pressure is really relieved from your fingers when you're doing it correctly. I find it hard to see how you could engage your hand in that manner on the lapis rolly bar you mention.

[tedwelser]

Dec 21, 2016 21:59:57 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

Bit hard to make any sort of constructive criticism now that the article's author has chimed in ^

I wouldn't call it 'jugs strength' - I think that's a misinterpretation of what Ted is getting at - well, at least how I see it anyway.

My interpretation, and jump in here Ted if I'm wrong, is that you're trying to hang kind of on the lip of the top of your palm, and that the pressure is really relieved from your fingers when you're doing it correctly. I find it hard to see how you could engage your hand in that manner on the lapis rolly bar you mention.

😁
Hey Jet- yeah hanging on the lip of the hold with the top of your palm is a great way to describe how you use the grip on the rock. Ideally you want to create the friction right under the callouses on your palm using as little effort as possible. The closer to the base on the first knuckle the smaller the lever arm against you and the less effort it takes to hold yourself there. You can tell when people are doing it right because their posture shows they are carefully hanging their center of gravity inside the box under the jug and they are shifting their center of balance as they match their hands.

The training for this is both strength and skill based. The center sloper in the beast maker 1000 actually has a good lip that you can engage this way. If you could put your feet on a kick plate you could do a one hand resting routine to practice the feel on it.

[aikibujin]

I’m glad kader posted this. After a couple disappointing endurance workouts in which I was pumping out on the bigger jugs, I remember reading this deep hold fitness a while back and was trying to find it again. Lots of info to digest.

[kader]

Dec 21, 2016 21:59:57 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

Bit hard to make any sort of constructive criticism now that the article's author has chimed in ^

I wouldn't call it 'jugs strength' - I think that's a misinterpretation of what Ted is getting at - well, at least how I see it anyway.

My interpretation, and jump in here Ted if I'm wrong, is that you're trying to hang kind of on the lip of the top of your palm, and that the pressure is really relieved from your fingers when you're doing it correctly. I find it hard to see how you could engage your hand in that manner on the lapis rolly bar you mention.

Thanks. i agree that the title is not really appropriate in that sense, but i was more referring to the training of A. Flexor carpi radialis, B. Flexor carpi ulnaris, C. Palmaris longus specificaly rather than the technique of hanging on the lip of the hold with the top of the palm.

Since A., B. and C. are flexing the wrist, i thought that the wrist roller and the rolly bar should help with making those muscle stronger and thus make jugs feel easier.


Am I missing the point?

[tedwelser]

Dec 23, 2016 8:55:14 GMT -7 kader said:

Dec 21, 2016 21:59:57 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

Bit hard to make any sort of constructive criticism now that the article's author has chimed in ^

I wouldn't call it 'jugs strength' - I think that's a misinterpretation of what Ted is getting at - well, at least how I see it anyway.

My interpretation, and jump in here Ted if I'm wrong, is that you're trying to hang kind of on the lip of the top of your palm, and that the pressure is really relieved from your fingers when you're doing it correctly. I find it hard to see how you could engage your hand in that manner on the lapis rolly bar you mention.

Thanks. i agree that the title is not really appropriate in that sense, but i was more referring to the training of A. Flexor carpi radialis, B. Flexor carpi ulnaris, C. Palmaris longus specificaly rather than the technique of hanging on the lip of the hold with the top of the palm.

Since A., B. and C. are flexing the wrist, i thought that the wrist roller and the rolly bar should help with making those muscle stronger and thus make jugs feel easier.


Am I missing the point?

I think you could certainly do some grip training exercises that would strengthen A,B,C mentioned above, and that those muscles being stronger will help some.  But I think that D,E are going to be the main sources of making jugs feel easier to grab, simply because they flex the wrist and the fingers and are larger and more general purpose.   But the grip training exercises like you mentioned will probably be helpful in strengthening D,E and for your main goal of getting stronger.  

I do think that there is overlap between goals of grip training and of climbing, and that having generally stronger forearms is generally helpful.  I do, however, think that as climbers our main goal is usually getting as specifically strong and efficient as possible at using our strength to climb effectively.  

I have often wondered if larger forearm muscles (through general grip training) would have any carryover influences on volume of blood flow and recovery rates for climbing specific challenges.  Sort of like, if you increase raw material of muscle mass with grip training, can you then optimize it for climbing with climbing training and have more potential fitness because of the extra volume of muscle and capillaries etc, or does the greater muscle mass have a downside?  like having more non specific tissue that needs to be serviced and taxes your capacity to recover (though I think this is less likely than the extra muscle being either helpful or at least non detrimental, but I don't know)

[aikibujin]

Ted, near the end of your article you mentioned that you were considering using the top of the pinch or the 3F slot to build strength in your finger extensors. Did you end up doing that? If so, what was your exeprience?

[tedwelser]

Dec 23, 2016 13:06:23 GMT -7 aikibujin said:

Ted, near the end of your article you mentioned that you were considering using the top of the pinch or the 3F slot to build strength in your finger extensors. Did you end up doing that? If so, what was your exeprience?

Hey- 

I did (for a season) train half crimps using the top of the pinch as a platform because my RPTC is not on a french cleat, and the pinch is a good width apart for me.   I think it was helpful, but then I got the Forge, and I decided to use the full crimp and the slimper.  I find both of these grips to feel more natural given the direction of pull in a hangboard setup (wrist is neutral).  I found holding the half crimp on top of the pinch a bit unnatural, I find it a bit better on the BM 1000, and much better in contexts like on a finger bucket on a roof.  

It might seem strange, but the main time I use a half crimp type grip I am grabbing a 1 to 1.5 pad incut on a roof and both my wrist and fingers are a bit extended.   I wonder is there is a more general affinity between the half crimp at the second knuckle and a slightly extended wrist position.  

I think you can get a more natural feeling half crimp wrist position doing one arm hangs as well.  

Regardless, the crimp and slimper have been helping me build my extensors, and it might be a key to some of my newfound bouldering strength. 

[kader]

Dec 23, 2016 10:15:03 GMT -7 tedwelser said:

I have often wondered if larger forearm muscles (through general grip training) would have any carryover influences on volume of blood flow and recovery rates for climbing specific challenges.  Sort of like, if you increase raw material of muscle mass with grip training, can you then optimize it for climbing with climbing training and have more potential fitness because of the extra volume of muscle and capillaries etc, or does the greater muscle mass have a downside?  like having more non specific tissue that needs to be serviced and taxes your capacity to recover (though I think this is less likely than the extra muscle being either helpful or at least non detrimental, but I don't know)

I have read somewhere that the reason why kids don't pump much id because the ratio between their capillary blood vessels and their myscle mass is smaller compared to adults, so for the most part it should be right... i've met fred nicole and his forearms size were about a 1.5l coke bottle though haha and he's climbed 9a...