Specific Training for the Red

[willblack]

I just got back from a trip out west, where I got to climb on essentially nothing but slightly overhung pockety limestone. Now I'm back in the SE and planning a trip to The Red, where I've gotten super humbled in the past. The style of climbing there (big holds, no real pockets, steep as shit) has just always shut me down and so I have tended to gravitate toward the slightly overhung stuff. This season, however, I'd like to address this weakness and be more of a thug. What should I do? Ideally I'd like to be able to send Jesus Wept and some stuff at the Motherlode in December. So far I've considered doing my LBC's on steeper terrain (45 deg) and linking 4 or 5 boulders instead of 3, as well as dieting prior to the sending phase, which is something that I don't do too often but which would probably help since I'm taller than most good sport climbers. Thoughts?

[MarkAnderson]

I would do a lot of ARCing during the beginning of your phase. That seems to be really effective for the Red, especially routes at the Motherlode which tend to be relatively long, sustained, and non-cruxy. Later in the phase, I would de-emphasize power and emphasize hi-rep PE. LBCs are better than nothing, but Route Intervals are probably better than LBCs.

Also, very little (if any) routes at the Red are 45 degrees. I would guess the very steepest stuff is around 30-35 degrees, and most of it (like Jesus Wept, Undertow Wall) is more like 20.

[willblack]

Aug 8, 2016 14:26:50 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

I would do a lot of ARCing during the beginning of your phase.

Route Intervals are probably better than LBCs.

Also, very little (if any) routes at the Red are 45 degrees. I would guess the very steepest stuff is around 30-35 degrees, and most of it (like Jesus Wept, Undertow Wall) is more like 20.

Damnit, I thought someone might mention ARCing. Fair enough. Also good point with route intervals, I have actually never done route intervals since I have always had really good success with LBC's. As far as the angle, I feel like I read somewhere that power training is best done on a slightly steeper angle with bigger holds than the outdoor route being trained for, but if this doesn't apply to PE training I would be more than happy to not try to do LBC's on a 45.

[MarkAnderson]

The advantage to training on a steeper (than your goal route) wall is that you can use larger holds that are less skin-threatening. That's a big factor for me since my goal routes tend to be not-that-steep climbing on razor blades. If I trained on that type of terrain my skin would be perpetually wrecked. Training in the 30-degree range is probably steep enough that you can get by with holds that aren't super sharp.

The other issue with steepness, more related to PE, is that it's hard to get properly pumped on not-so-steep walls, because the footholds are usually unrealistically large. I'm thinking walls in the range of 0-10 degrees. 30 degrees is definitely steep enough to get pumped regardless of foothold size.

[willblack]

That all makes sense. If I had to choose between doing LBC's on a 45 or a 20, which would you recommend? I was thinking I could do four sets on each, or 5 sets on the 20 and 3 sets on the 45

[tedwelser]

Aug 8, 2016 14:26:50 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

I would do a lot of ARCing during the beginning of your phase. That seems to be really effective for the Red, especially routes at the Motherlode which tend to be relatively long, sustained, and non-cruxy. Later in the phase, I would de-emphasize power and emphasize hi-rep PE. LBCs are better than nothing, but Route Intervals are probably better than LBCs.

Also, very little (if any) routes at the Red are 45 degrees. I would guess the very steepest stuff is around 30-35 degrees, and most of it (like Jesus Wept, Undertow Wall) is more like 20.

I am pretty sure that the undertow is a pretty consistent 28 degree wall.  Perhaps someone can measure it for us, but it does not feel or look like 20 degree (having just built a big 20 degree wall I know 20 degree feels more like face climbing).   It is certainly true that many of the lines at the red are at about 15-30 degrees, although several famous lines are steeper (Phantasia/Twinkie, Stunning the Hog, Slap, Horn, Betevul Pipeline, Black Ice). The Madness, 40 oz of Justice are around 25 degrees in the pre-amble and finish, but are basically 45 in the core sections.   Mercy the Huff, a classic 12b, is about 20 degrees, with a brief steeper section at the crux.  

If I were training for the steep RRG stuff I would split my time between 20-25 degree walls and 30-45 degree walls.   

This is 8133, a steep 5.11d at Millers Fork.  I would guess the majority of the route falls between 35 and 40 degrees.  The skyline is close to the angle of the actual route.  

[brendann]

Jesus Wept requires not getting pumped on 5.11d 40-degree climbing so you can do the vertical crux. I would recommend ARCing on 5.11d 45-degree climbing so you don't get pumped. Bump that up to 5.12 for the Motherload.

[willblack]

I've heard Jesus Wept described as steep V3 to slightly overhung 5.10 to very slightly overhung pockety V4. Does this sound about right?

[willblack]

Also, ARCing for 20 minutes on 40-degree 5.11d sounds extremely hard/impossible for anyone who climbs under mid 5.13, and also a recipe for lots of flappers. To me, that sounds like more appropriate training for the madness cave, which would require you to truly not get pumped on 100 feet of 40 degree overhung hard 5.11/low 5.12 with a few cruxes interspersed. I was just at Maple, and even the longest endurance 5.12+ routes I got on there didn't have any moves harder than 11b or 11c and didn't require more than ten minutes of climbing at the most.

[jessebruni]

Is my profile picture still Jesus Wept? I'd say Willblack's assessment is pretty good.

[brendann]

"steep V3 to slightly overhung 5.10 to very slightly overhung pockets V4" sounds pretty spot on
I was setting training expectations for a quick completion/onsight tour.
Train steeper than your goal route. Take care of your skin to avoid flappers.
ARCing is not about simulating your goal route but rather having fitness to do a lot of different things.

[headysends]

Hi all! I am posting to this thread rather than starting another since I too am heading to the Red in a few weeks and would like to hear some feedback on how to best leverage my PE phase for this destination.

A little background, I have been to the Red a number of times so I am familiar with the routes and style of climbing. My goal routes are in the 5.12+ range (Cell Block 6, Jesus Wept, Dog Bites & Fist Fights, open to recommendations!). I've completed a 9 session Strength phase and 3.5 week Power Phase that consisted of campusing and LBing. My first PE workout the other day ended up being on ropes and basically followed the Route Interval routine. I ended up leading four steep 5.10-11 routes (~50-60' long) to warm up then starting TRing a short bouldery 11d as my workout route. Fairly steep in the beginning with a vertical techy section at the top, ~30-32 moves, 3:30 time on route, 1:2 duty cycle, 4 sets, probably no move harder than v4. I was definitely pumped at the end of the session.

Does this sound like an effective PE workout for the Red? I've got a little less than 3 weeks until my trip so I'd like to slowly up the length of the routes until I leave so I have the endurance to climb those long pumpy routes there. However I wonder if I should do a few LBC sessions before continuing with RIs...Or perhaps the I should stay the course, repeat the above workout once or twice a week until I leave...

I'm also concerned with losing power before I leave, should I throw in a couple campus/boulder sessions before leaving for the Red (I'll be down there for 2 weeks)?

Any input I can get on how to make sure I execute this PE phase as best as possible would be awesome. I always struggle with this phase as its hard to maintain focus at this point in my training cycle. Thanks!

[tedwelser]

Mar 20, 2017 10:24:24 GMT -7 headysends said:

Hi all! I am posting to this thread rather than starting another since I too am heading to the Red in a few weeks and would like to hear some feedback on how to best leverage my PE phase for this destination.

A little background, I have been to the Red a number of times so I am familiar with the routes and style of climbing. My goal routes are in the 5.12+ range (Cell Block 6, Jesus Wept, Dog Bites & Fist Fights, open to recommendations!). I've completed a 9 session Strength phase and 3.5 week Power Phase that consisted of campusing and LBing. My first PE workout the other day ended up being on ropes and basically followed the Route Interval routine. I ended up leading four steep 5.10-11 routes (~50-60' long) to warm up then starting TRing a short bouldery 11d as my workout route. Fairly steep in the beginning with a vertical techy section at the top, ~30-32 moves, 3:30 time on route, 1:2 duty cycle, 4 sets, probably no move harder than v4. I was definitely pumped at the end of the session.

. . .

Any input I can get on how to make sure I execute this PE phase as best as possible would be awesome. I always struggle with this phase as its hard to maintain focus at this point in my training cycle. Thanks!

Hey- 

My local areas are the Red and the New.  I have generally been more of an endurance climber, but I am not sure I really am one anymore but I think I get what these areas demand.  I feel as though the Red really rewards you for finding the "water course way" or the easiest possible path through seemingly hard terrain.  The more you make things feel easy, the better off your are.  So that is part of the reason that I like your PE plan to the extent that are flowing easily through technical terrain and really noticing all the ways that you make it feel easier.  I think too many people think that the Red is a thuggy place, when I have often found it is best to treat it as a dance and avoid difficulty whenever possible.  Many routes are long and overhanging, but they have lots of ways to be tweaked to become easier and more restful.  Cell block seems this way to me, basically avoid trying hard till you get to the last 2 bolts, then pour it on in a PE way to the finish.  

I think that your PE workout will serve you well to that end.  The one thing I wonder about is do you have any part of your workout where you practice active recovery on a steep wall?    Assuming you can avoid damaging your skin, could you match on a deep jug on a 25 degree wall for 10 min between goes on your PE route?  If you can do that you will be well prepared for the Red.  

I don't know if you are planning quick redpoints, flashes or longer term projects on your visit but there are several great routes in your range at the Motherlode.  Snooker and 8 ball stand out, as do Stain and Buff the Wood.  I am not sure how current the bolts are, but if you get a chance to climb at Torrent Steelworker is a really cool red river style 12c.